From owner-vectorlist Tue Feb 1 02:48:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA03662 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 02:48:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA19892 for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:52:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f From: acmech (Dan Todd) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: Test message Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 05:48:44 GMT Message-ID: <38a3736a.11786361 > References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by synthcom.com id XAA19889 Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO I've got your messages Neil but I can't see anything else, except for a couple of my own posts. Sorry to everyone else. Dan On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:50:42 -0800 (PST), you wrote: >> I haven't seen any traffic in a week. I posted the test message, saw it and >> figured it was OK, so I posted a tech Q. I never saw that one show up in my box >> nor any response. I did get this message from Neil though. What's UP? >> Something screwy is going on. :( > >Was it about the time that I switched my link to DSL and moved all the >IPs? I'm still finding servers occasionally who are either resolving to >the wrong IP address when trying to contact me or have stale reverse DNS >lookups for Synthcom, which may trigger mailers to dump mail on the ground >because the source address and the looked-up DNS entry don't match. Most >likely that's what was going on. > >-->Neil > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Neil Bradley Synthcom home : http://www.synthcom.com >Synthcom Systems, Inc. Y2K Dumbness - "Instant noodle meals are disappearing." >ICQ # 29402898 "Hordes coming for my Ramen stash? I'm getting my gun." > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the >** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other >** questions, comments, or problems to neil . --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Tue Feb 1 10:33:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA14477 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:32:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA21137 for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:32:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-Id: <200002011518.JAA14306 > Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:18:58 -0600 (CST) From: "Mark A. Jenison" X-Sender: jenison@crecendo To: vectorlist Subject: VECTOR: WG6100 picture fluctuation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO Hi all, I've got a WG6100 here that's really puzzling me. The picture fluctuates (squishes up and down, left and right), and is rather small. Pressing and tapping on the deflection board has a direct effect. It is acting like an intermittent connection, but the fact that it is in both directions (X and Y) at the same time leads me to believe it is more power related. I have installed an entire Zanen cap kit in the monitor. I have resoldered all the pins (and taken some same paper to the pins to roughen them up), and resoldered anything that looks like it might have a bad solder joint. Check the main connector pins. A bunch of snapping seems to be coming from underneath the focus and screen knob on the HV unit. I can't tell it if is directly proportional to the screen fluctuations because both are happening too fast. The smaller picture (and the snapping) leads me to believe the HV is being driven too much (possibly?). Swapping out a known good deflection board solves all problems, so it appears to be local to the deflection board. Any ideas what part of the circuit could be causing this? -- Mark Jenison --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Tue Feb 1 11:39:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA25816 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 11:39:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA21366 for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:36:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <38970861.D1D5CEAF > Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 10:22:57 -0600 From: tom mcclintock Organization: MG Capital X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: VECTOR: Tempest level editor References: <200002011518.JAA14306 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO There's a new version of the Tempest level editor: http://www.thundercross.freeserve.co.uk/temped tm --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Tue Feb 1 14:41:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA22924 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:40:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA22137 for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 11:40:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <389733C0.FACE45DB@cedar-rapids.net> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 13:28:01 -0600 From: Rodger Boots Organization: No noticable organization. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: WG6100 picture fluctuation References: <200002011518.JAA14306 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO Certainly sounds like the high voltage is varying, but the DEFLECTION board fixes it??? That would seem to point to the voltage regulators on the deflection board, but the HIGH VOLTAGE supply is snapping??? Get a high voltage probe on this and see what you have. The regulator on the high voltage supply might not be regulating OR might be set all wrong due to the cap kit installation. Get that sorted out first before you get too excited over working on the deflection board. "Mark A. Jenison" wrote: > Hi all, > > I've got a WG6100 here that's really puzzling me. > > The picture fluctuates (squishes up and down, left and right), and is > rather small. Pressing and tapping on the deflection board has a > direct effect. It is acting like an intermittent connection, but > the fact that it is in both directions (X and Y) at the same time leads > me to believe it is more power related. > > I have installed an entire Zanen cap kit in the monitor. I have > resoldered all the pins (and taken some same paper to the pins to > roughen them up), and resoldered anything that looks like it might > have a bad solder joint. Check the main connector pins. > > A bunch of snapping seems to be coming from underneath the focus and > screen knob on the HV unit. I can't tell it if is directly proportional > to the screen fluctuations because both are happening too fast. The > smaller picture (and the snapping) leads me to believe the HV is being > driven too much (possibly?). > > Swapping out a known good deflection board solves all problems, so it > appears to be local to the deflection board. Any ideas what part of the > circuit could be causing this? > > -- > Mark Jenison > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . -- Windows: 32 bit graphical interface for a 16 bit patch for an 8 bit operating system written for a 4 bit processor by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Tue Feb 1 16:12:59 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA06422 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:12:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA22570 for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:09:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 15:56:24 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: WG6100 picture fluctuation In-Reply-To: <389733C0.FACE45DB@cedar-rapids.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Rodger Boots wrote: > Certainly sounds like the high voltage is varying, but the DEFLECTION board > fixes it??? Sure -- the deflection board makes the low voltages that are turned into high voltage, doesn't it ? -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Tue Feb 1 16:23:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: from orion.smart.net (orion.smart.net [207.176.80.105]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA08161 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:23:16 -0500 Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by orion.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA21100 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:11:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA22589 for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:13:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-Id: <4.2.1.20000201125513.00acb6d0 > X-Sender: a1a96636@pop.telus.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.1 Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 12:57:02 -0800 To: vectorlist From: John Robertson Subject: Re: VECTOR: WG6100 picture fluctuation In-Reply-To: <200002011518.JAA14306 > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO When you have a problem that is affected by physical force (like flexing a board) then you most likely have either a cracked solder connection, a damaged/broken trace, or a bad/noisy potentiometer. I would suspect the cracked trace or solder connection on one of the connector pins first at this point. John :-#)# At 09:18 AM 2/1/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I've got a WG6100 here that's really puzzling me. > >The picture fluctuates (squishes up and down, left and right), and is >rather small. Pressing and tapping on the deflection board has a >direct effect. It is acting like an intermittent connection, but >the fact that it is in both directions (X and Y) at the same time leads >me to believe it is more power related. > >I have installed an entire Zanen cap kit in the monitor. I have >resoldered all the pins (and taken some same paper to the pins to >roughen them up), and resoldered anything that looks like it might >have a bad solder joint. Check the main connector pins. > >A bunch of snapping seems to be coming from underneath the focus and >screen knob on the HV unit. I can't tell it if is directly proportional >to the screen fluctuations because both are happening too fast. The >smaller picture (and the snapping) leads me to believe the HV is being >driven too much (possibly?). > >Swapping out a known good deflection board solves all problems, so it >appears to be local to the deflection board. Any ideas what part of the >circuit could be causing this? > >-- >Mark Jenison > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the >** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other >** questions, comments, or problems to neil . John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) http://www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Tue Feb 1 17:13:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: from orion.smart.net (orion.smart.net [207.176.80.105]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA16294 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:13:10 -0500 Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by orion.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA22114 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:53:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA22808 for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:45:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <389750CB.5903C6FA@cedar-rapids.net> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 15:31:55 -0600 From: Rodger Boots Organization: No noticable organization. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: WG6100 picture fluctuation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO Yeah, BUT.... The HVPS has its own regulator that should minimize the effects of the low voltage regulator changing. True, though, the LV regulators are the natural place to look (and can directly cause deflection to change). "Christopher X. Candreva" wrote: > On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Rodger Boots wrote: > > > Certainly sounds like the high voltage is varying, but the DEFLECTION board > > fixes it??? > > Sure -- the deflection board makes the low voltages that are turned into > high voltage, doesn't it ? > > -Chris > > > ========================================================== > Chris Candreva -- chris -- (914) 967-7816 > WestNet Internet Services of Westchester > http://www.westnet.com/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . -- Windows: 32 bit graphical interface for a 16 bit patch for an 8 bit operating system written for a 4 bit processor by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Tue Feb 1 17:16:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA16753 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:16:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA22992 for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:12:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-Id: <200002012159.PAA10535 > Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 15:59:04 -0600 (CST) From: "Mark A. Jenison" X-Sender: jenison@crecendo To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: WG6100 picture fluctuation In-Reply-To: <389750CB.5903C6FA@cedar-rapids.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Rodger Boots wrote: > Yeah, BUT.... > The HVPS has its own regulator that should minimize the effects of the low > voltage regulator changing. True, though, the LV regulators are the natural > place to look (and can directly cause deflection to change). Ok, which are the low voltage regulators? I will also re-resolder the connector pins and other suspect joints. -- Mark Jenison --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Tue Feb 1 17:19:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA17255 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:19:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA23021 for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:17:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f From: Dave Downin Message-Id: <200002012131.QAA09512@smarty.smart.net> Subject: Re: VECTOR: WG6100 picture fluctuation To: vectorlist Date: Tue, 1 Feb 100 16:31:43 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <200002011518.JAA14306 > from "Mark A. Jenison" at Feb 1, 0 09:18:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO Mark Jenison wrote: > A bunch of snapping seems to be coming from underneath the focus and > screen knob on the HV unit. I can't tell it if is directly proportional > to the screen fluctuations because both are happening too fast. The > smaller picture (and the snapping) leads me to believe the HV is being > driven too much (possibly?). This has happened with both of my HV units, and I've kind of assumed it was just normal... it happened on my original unit until I blew it up by installing a cap kit and then forgetting about setting the HV adjust pot in the middle. My 2nd unit I got directly from Gregg Woodcock, as a complete unit, and already properly capped and adjusted. I've checked the HV with a probe and it is correctly set at 19.5kV. My picture doesn't fluctuate however. Also, the snapping doesn't really start happening until the machine has been on for 15-20 minutes, and starts out slowly and gets a little more rapid with time. So, this problem (the snapping) may not be related - and yes, on my unit, it seems to be coming from exactly the same place (in the focus/screen assembly unit). Do I have a potential problem with mine though??? The monitor is completely capped and has an LV2000 installed and has been pretty rock solid... except for needing to be re-converged (new tube installed). -- Dave Downin (dave@arlo.net) ============================================================================= "Sorry, the world is nuts. It can't be helped" - Arlo Guthrie ArloNet - http://www.arlo.net/ ============================================================================= Any commercial e-mail sent to any of the above accounts will be automatically rejected and subject to a $500 processing fee. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Tue Feb 1 22:42:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA00940 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 22:42:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA24304 for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 19:42:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f From: "Brian Deuel" To: "Vectorlist > Subject: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 22:28:20 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95B08 > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal X-PATHWAY: SMTP FROM URUGUAY Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO Anyone know what ever became of this project? Jeff? -----Original Message----- From: owner-vectorlist [mailto:owner-vectorlist ]On Behalf Of jeff hendrix Sent: Thursday, November 25, 1999 1:20 PM To: vectorlist Subject: Space Wars My progress on space wars has come a long way, in other words, it's getting close to being finished. I've run into a small snag. I was working on the ship to ship collision routine and when I got it close to being finished I tested it out and it slows MAME down to a crawl when it gets called. I'm checking every segment against every segment in the opposite ship. I'm checking 11 on ship 1 and 9 on ship 2 for a total of 99 checks. I'm implementing the following formula for each segment check (re-written in assembly, of course, for a total of about 300 lines of code) x1,y1 - shot initial position x2,y2 - shot new position x3,y3 - last point from ship used to check collision x4,y4 - new point from ship used to check collision a1=y2-y1 b1=x1-x2 c1=x2*y1-x1*y2 r1=a1*x3+b1*y3+c1 r2=a1*x4+b1*y4+c1 if r1 & r2 !=0 & have same sign, they don't intersect a2=y4-y3 b2=x3-x4 c2=x4*y3-x3*y4 r1=a2*x1+b2*y1+c2 r2=a2*x2+b2*y2+c2 if r1 & r2 have same sign, they don't intersect This works find for shot collision detection (I'm using the old shot position and the new shot position for the line endpoints), but it's way too slow for ship to ship. What I'm wondering is, does anybody have a simpler way to check for the intersection of 2 lines? -jeff --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Tue Feb 1 23:08:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: from orion.smart.net (orion.smart.net [207.176.80.105]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA04824 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:08:16 -0500 Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by orion.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA32609 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:08:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA24397 for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:14:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <001d01bf6d41$fa3f0880$7be1c5d1@mkosalka> From: "Gregg Woodcock" To: References: <200002012131.QAA09512@smarty.smart.net> Subject: Re: VECTOR: WG6100 picture fluctuation Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:46:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Downin To: Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 2:11 PM Subject: Re: VECTOR: WG6100 picture fluctuation > This has happened with both of my HV units, and I've kind of assumed it was > just normal... it happened on my original unit until I blew it up by > installing a cap kit and then forgetting about setting the HV adjust pot in > the middle. My 2nd unit I got directly from Gregg Woodcock, as a complete > unit, and already properly capped and adjusted. I've checked the HV with a > probe and it is correctly set at 19.5kV. My picture doesn't fluctuate > however. Also, the snapping doesn't really start happening until the machine > has been on for 15-20 minutes, and starts out slowly and gets a little more > rapid with time. So, this problem (the snapping) may not be related - and > yes, on my unit, it seems to be coming from exactly the same place (in the > focus/screen assembly unit). > > Do I have a potential problem with mine though??? The monitor is completely > capped and has an LV2000 installed and has been pretty rock solid... except > for needing to be re-converged (new tube installed). This is definitely NOT normal and I've never (knowingly) sold/traded one that did this. Check it out in another machine to see if it is the HV unit or something else. If it is the HV unit, I'll swap yours out for another one!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 00:09:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA14839 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 00:08:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA24551 for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:12:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <004601bf6d4a$21caa780$01e1c5d1@mkosalka> From: "Gregg Woodcock" To: References: <20000127034948.41207.qmail > Subject: Re: VECTOR: Flyback for Asteroids Cocktail Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 22:52:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO > hi, looking for a flyback for an asteroids cocktail, i heard that these > things were almost non existant.. was wondering if anyone has one for sale > and also wondering what the going rate for a working one is right now. I don't have just that part but I have working spares of the entire HV unit (and whole monitors) for all versions. Email me with more info and we'll work out a trade/sale... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 10:36:24 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA07040 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:36:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA26512 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:36:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-Id: <200002021522.JAA16888 > Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:22:45 -0600 (CST) From: "Mark A. Jenison" X-Sender: jenison@crecendo To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: Follow up: WG6100 picture fluctuation In-Reply-To: <001d01bf6d41$fa3f0880$7be1c5d1@mkosalka> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO Well, I tested the deflection board again last night after first resoldering the header pins AGAIN, and resoldering about 50% of the solder joints on the board, hoping to get lucky and catch the culprit. The HV snapping appears not to be related to any specific deflection board. It appears that the HV transformer HAS been replaced at one time (also, there is a HUGH hole right through the middle of the HV PCB, but the problem there appears to have been fixed correctly). Anyway, I fire it up, and the problem is STILL THERE! So I go into Magic Fingers(tm) mode, and start tapping on, wiggling, and touching the parts on the board while the game is fired up to see what happens. Tapping the deflection board has a direct effect on the screen. So I start wiggling the transistor heat sinks, connectors, etc, trying to figure out which part I touch effects the screen the most. Eventually I get down to the large ceramic resistors going across the board. I grab one and wiggle it, and it appears to fix the screen. However, I specifically resoldered the joints on these resistors, so it must be a problem with the actual resistor itself. I push the resistor down such that the wire leads make more contact with those "hollow pin things" that the leads are inserted into, and let go, and the picture stays good. I figure the resistor needs replaced (as I see the other resistor WAS replaced at one time, but not this one), but I don't have any spares nor time to mess with it any longer, so I call it a day. -- Mark Jenison Magic Fingers(tm) is a trademark of Mark Jenison, and should not be tried at home. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 10:43:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA08111 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:43:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA26552 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:44:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <38984DBF.B3018B8A > Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 08:31:11 -0700 From: Jess Askey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: VECTOR: Sega VIC replacement board? References: <200002021522.JAA16888 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO Hi all, I found a Sega VIC replacment board in a pile of 'stuff'. Was this a vector board or a raster board? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 11:12:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA14357 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:12:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA26606 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:04:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95BE5 > From: jeff hendrix To: "'vectorlist > Subject: RE: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:50:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO I'm still working on it, I'm just taking a slight break right now. I reduced the complexity for the polygons used in the ship to ship collision detection routine, but it still slows down just enough to make in annoying. Clay and I have been discussing the possibility to adding a math coprocessor to the multigame kit. This would allow space wars, and any other game anybody wants to write, to do as much math as they want without suffering any speed loss. It would also mean that we would have to patch MAME to properly emulate the new hardware. -jeff -----Original Message----- From: Brian Deuel [mailto:bdeuel ] Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 8:28 PM To: Vectorlist Subject: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars Anyone know what ever became of this project? Jeff? -----Original Message----- From: owner-vectorlist [mailto:owner-vectorlist ]On Behalf Of jeff hendrix Sent: Thursday, November 25, 1999 1:20 PM To: vectorlist Subject: Space Wars My progress on space wars has come a long way, in other words, it's getting close to being finished. I've run into a small snag. I was working on the ship to ship collision routine and when I got it close to being finished I tested it out and it slows MAME down to a crawl when it gets called. I'm checking every segment against every segment in the opposite ship. I'm checking 11 on ship 1 and 9 on ship 2 for a total of 99 checks. I'm implementing the following formula for each segment check (re-written in assembly, of course, for a total of about 300 lines of code) x1,y1 - shot initial position x2,y2 - shot new position x3,y3 - last point from ship used to check collision x4,y4 - new point from ship used to check collision a1=y2-y1 b1=x1-x2 c1=x2*y1-x1*y2 r1=a1*x3+b1*y3+c1 r2=a1*x4+b1*y4+c1 if r1 & r2 !=0 & have same sign, they don't intersect a2=y4-y3 b2=x3-x4 c2=x4*y3-x3*y4 r1=a2*x1+b2*y1+c2 r2=a2*x2+b2*y2+c2 if r1 & r2 have same sign, they don't intersect This works find for shot collision detection (I'm using the old shot position and the new shot position for the line endpoints), but it's way too slow for ship to ship. What I'm wondering is, does anybody have a simpler way to check for the intersection of 2 lines? -jeff --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 11:29:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA17419 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:29:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA26656 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:19:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-Id: <200002021605.KAA20733 > Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:05:54 -0600 (CST) From: "Mark A. Jenison" X-Sender: jenison@crecendo To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: Sega VIC replacement board? In-Reply-To: <38984DBF.B3018B8A > MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO This is a raster board, used on the G-80 raster games (Monster Bash, Astro Blaster, 005, etc). Mark Jenison On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Jess Askey wrote: > Hi all, > I found a Sega VIC replacment board in a pile of 'stuff'. Was this a vector board or a > raster board? > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 12:07:09 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA23479 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:07:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA26796 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:59:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f From: "Randy" To: Subject: RE: VECTOR: Follow up: WG6100 picture fluctuation Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:45:09 -0500 Message-ID: <000001bf6d9c$ee12d2c0$c166183f@ekqdc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200002021522.JAA16888 > Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO Mark; I thought I'd offer my limited expertise in this problem. I had a deflection board with the same problem with the ceramic resistor. Turns out the wire from the resistor that runs through the hollow tube was broken. Resoldering the joint didn't help. It was broken near the top of the tube. Since I could't find any of the resistors, I removed the broken wire, ran a new longer wire to the resistor & soldered the 2 wires together. I am sure this is not the "proper" way to fix the problem, but it worked for me. It got one of my Star Wars up & running. Been running fine for the past 3 months. I am going to take the monitor back out & fix it correctly as I have now gotten a HV for the original Amplifone monitor. Once it is fixed correctly it will be going into a Tempest cab hopefully to be a Major Havoc soon. If you ever find out what is causing the snapping in the HV, please let us know. I have a HV unit doing the same thing. I was told that the Focus or brightness pot may be corroded & causing a short. Hope this helps Randy -----Original Message----- From: owner-vectorlist [mailto:owner-vectorlist ]On Behalf Of Mark A. Jenison Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 10:23 AM To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: Follow up: WG6100 picture fluctuation Well, I tested the deflection board again last night after first resoldering the header pins AGAIN, and resoldering about 50% of the solder joints on the board, hoping to get lucky and catch the culprit. The HV snapping appears not to be related to any specific deflection board. It appears that the HV transformer HAS been replaced at one time (also, there is a HUGH hole right through the middle of the HV PCB, but the problem there appears to have been fixed correctly). Anyway, I fire it up, and the problem is STILL THERE! So I go into Magic Fingers(tm) mode, and start tapping on, wiggling, and touching the parts on the board while the game is fired up to see what happens. Tapping the deflection board has a direct effect on the screen. So I start wiggling the transistor heat sinks, connectors, etc, trying to figure out which part I touch effects the screen the most. Eventually I get down to the large ceramic resistors going across the board. I grab one and wiggle it, and it appears to fix the screen. However, I specifically resoldered the joints on these resistors, so it must be a problem with the actual resistor itself. I push the resistor down such that the wire leads make more contact with those "hollow pin things" that the leads are inserted into, and let go, and the picture stays good. I figure the resistor needs replaced (as I see the other resistor WAS replaced at one time, but not this one), but I don't have any spares nor time to mess with it any longer, so I call it a day. -- Mark Jenison Magic Fingers(tm) is a trademark of Mark Jenison, and should not be tried at home. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 12:07:09 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA23483 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:07:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA26848 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:10:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <389861BB.552992E2 > Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:56:27 -0700 From: Jess Askey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: Sega VIC replacement board? References: <200002021605.KAA20733 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO thanks! If anyone wants it. Give me your address, it's yours. jess "Mark A. Jenison" wrote: > > This is a raster board, used on the G-80 raster games (Monster Bash, > Astro Blaster, 005, etc). > > Mark Jenison > > On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Jess Askey wrote: > > > Hi all, > > I found a Sega VIC replacment board in a pile of 'stuff'. Was this a vector board or a > > raster board? > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > > ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other > > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 12:19:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA25631 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:19:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA26881 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:18:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95BE6 > From: jeff hendrix To: "'vectorlist > Subject: VECTOR: Zannen HV transformer Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:04:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO Has anybody called Zannen lately to find out the status of the replacement amplifone HV transformers? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 12:28:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA27001 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:28:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA26922 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:26:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:13:23 -0800 From: Al Kossow Message-Id: <200002021713.JAA08657 > To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: Sega VIC replacement board? Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO " I found a Sega VIC replacment board in a pile of 'stuff'. Was this a vector board or a raster board? " Raster. VIC was the 40 pin video IC used in most of Sega's late 70's raster games. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 16:09:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA00708 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:09:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA27850 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:09:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <389898D0.4A3346BC@cedar-rapids.net> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 14:51:28 -0600 From: Rodger Boots Organization: No noticable organization. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars References: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95BE5 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO This is probably a stupid question, but if MAME is having trouble with the calculations now just how is adding yet another emulated device going to speed things up? If anything I would think it would slow it further. jeff hendrix wrote: > I'm still working on it, I'm just taking a slight break right now. > I reduced the complexity for the polygons used in the ship to ship collision > detection routine, but it still slows down just enough to make in annoying. > > Clay and I have been discussing the possibility to adding a math coprocessor > to the multigame kit. This would allow space wars, and any other game > anybody wants to write, to do as much math as they want without suffering > any speed loss. It would also mean that we would have to patch MAME to > properly emulate the new hardware. > > -jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Deuel [mailto:bdeuel ] > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 8:28 PM > To: Vectorlist > Subject: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars > > Anyone know what ever became of this project? Jeff? > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-vectorlist > [mailto:owner-vectorlist ]On Behalf Of jeff hendrix > Sent: Thursday, November 25, 1999 1:20 PM > To: vectorlist > Subject: Space Wars > > My progress on space wars has come a long way, in other words, it's > getting close to being finished. > > I've run into a small snag. I was working on the ship to ship > collision routine and when I got it close to being finished I tested it out > and it slows MAME down to a crawl when it gets called. I'm checking every > segment against every segment in the opposite ship. I'm checking 11 on ship > 1 and 9 on ship 2 for a total of 99 checks. > > I'm implementing the following formula for each segment check (re-written in > assembly, of course, for a total of about 300 lines of code) > > x1,y1 - shot initial position > x2,y2 - shot new position > x3,y3 - last point from ship used to check collision > x4,y4 - new point from ship used to check collision > a1=y2-y1 > b1=x1-x2 > c1=x2*y1-x1*y2 > r1=a1*x3+b1*y3+c1 > r2=a1*x4+b1*y4+c1 > if r1 & r2 !=0 & have same sign, they don't intersect > a2=y4-y3 > b2=x3-x4 > c2=x4*y3-x3*y4 > r1=a2*x1+b2*y1+c2 > r2=a2*x2+b2*y2+c2 > if r1 & r2 have same sign, they don't intersect > > This works find for shot collision detection (I'm using the old shot > position and the new shot position for the line endpoints), but it's way too > slow for ship to ship. > What I'm wondering is, does anybody have a simpler way to check for the > intersection of 2 lines? > > -jeff > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . -- Windows: 32 bit graphical interface for a 16 bit patch for an 8 bit operating system written for a 4 bit processor by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 16:24:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA03337 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:24:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA27894 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:17:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:04:10 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars In-Reply-To: <389898D0.4A3346BC@cedar-rapids.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Rodger Boots wrote: > This is probably a stupid question, but if MAME is having trouble with the > calculations now just how is adding yet another emulated device going to speed > things up? If anything I would think it would slow it further. The idea is to speed up the real hardware, not MAME. -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 16:27:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA03995 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:27:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA27940 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:30:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: router.dmz.intouchsurvey.com: mail set sender to using -f From: "Chris Bright" To: Subject: RE: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:16:15 -0500 Message-ID: <000a01bf6dc2$bdae6830$4e0010ac > MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <389898D0.4A3346BC@cedar-rapids.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO It isn't MAME that is slow, it is the origional hardware... MAME only emulates it and its slowness... The changes to MAME would be to emulate the fast math processor that would be part of the vector multigame kit. Later, Chris Bright Vid Home Page http://www.comnet.ca/~cbright/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-vectorlist [mailto:owner-vectorlist ]On Behalf Of Rodger Boots Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 3:51 PM To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars This is probably a stupid question, but if MAME is having trouble with the calculations now just how is adding yet another emulated device going to speed things up? If anything I would think it would slow it further. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 16:31:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA04686 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:31:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA27950 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:33:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:20:30 -0800 From: Al Kossow Message-Id: <200002022120.NAA24544 > To: vectorlist Subject: RE: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO "The changes to MAME would be to emulate the fast math processor that would be part of the vector multigame kit. " I guess I'm coming into this late. What kind of part are you thinking of using (DSP?) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 16:39:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA05788 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:39:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA27902 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:18:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <38989BBE.9A74613F > Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 14:03:58 -0700 From: Jess Askey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars References: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95BE5 > <389898D0.4A3346BC@cedar-rapids.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO I think jeff was talking about adding a co-processor to Clay's multigame kit which would allow Jeff (or anyone else that writes new code for the SD hardware) to do more complex programming without getting bad flicker on the vector montior. The MAME reference was just so that MAME could be used in development of the new software. jess Rodger Boots wrote: > > This is probably a stupid question, but if MAME is having trouble with the > calculations now just how is adding yet another emulated device going to speed > things up? If anything I would think it would slow it further. > > jeff hendrix wrote: > > > I'm still working on it, I'm just taking a slight break right now. > > I reduced the complexity for the polygons used in the ship to ship collision > > detection routine, but it still slows down just enough to make in annoying. > > > > Clay and I have been discussing the possibility to adding a math coprocessor > > to the multigame kit. This would allow space wars, and any other game > > anybody wants to write, to do as much math as they want without suffering > > any speed loss. It would also mean that we would have to patch MAME to > > properly emulate the new hardware. > > > > -jeff > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Brian Deuel [mailto:bdeuel ] > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 8:28 PM > > To: Vectorlist > > Subject: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars > > > > Anyone know what ever became of this project? Jeff? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-vectorlist > > [mailto:owner-vectorlist ]On Behalf Of jeff hendrix > > Sent: Thursday, November 25, 1999 1:20 PM > > To: vectorlist > > Subject: Space Wars > > > > My progress on space wars has come a long way, in other words, it's > > getting close to being finished. > > > > I've run into a small snag. I was working on the ship to ship > > collision routine and when I got it close to being finished I tested it out > > and it slows MAME down to a crawl when it gets called. I'm checking every > > segment against every segment in the opposite ship. I'm checking 11 on ship > > 1 and 9 on ship 2 for a total of 99 checks. > > > > I'm implementing the following formula for each segment check (re-written in > > assembly, of course, for a total of about 300 lines of code) > > > > x1,y1 - shot initial position > > x2,y2 - shot new position > > x3,y3 - last point from ship used to check collision > > x4,y4 - new point from ship used to check collision > > a1=y2-y1 > > b1=x1-x2 > > c1=x2*y1-x1*y2 > > r1=a1*x3+b1*y3+c1 > > r2=a1*x4+b1*y4+c1 > > if r1 & r2 !=0 & have same sign, they don't intersect > > a2=y4-y3 > > b2=x3-x4 > > c2=x4*y3-x3*y4 > > r1=a2*x1+b2*y1+c2 > > r2=a2*x2+b2*y2+c2 > > if r1 & r2 have same sign, they don't intersect > > > > This works find for shot collision detection (I'm using the old shot > > position and the new shot position for the line endpoints), but it's way too > > slow for ship to ship. > > What I'm wondering is, does anybody have a simpler way to check for the > > intersection of 2 lines? > > > > -jeff > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > > ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other > > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > > ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other > > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . > > -- > Windows: > > 32 bit graphical interface for a > 16 bit patch for an > 8 bit operating system written for a > 4 bit processor by a > 2 bit company that can't stand > 1 bit of competition. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 16:40:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA06145 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:40:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA27980 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:36:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95BE7 > From: jeff hendrix To: "'vectorlist > Subject: RE: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:22:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO I have MAME setup to emulate the speed of the original processor. So reguardless of the speed of the computer, it will only emulate instructions at 1.5MHz. -----Original Message----- From: Rodger Boots [mailto:rlboots@cedar-rapids.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 1:51 PM To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars This is probably a stupid question, but if MAME is having trouble with the calculations now just how is adding yet another emulated device going to speed things up? If anything I would think it would slow it further. jeff hendrix wrote: > I'm still working on it, I'm just taking a slight break right now. > I reduced the complexity for the polygons used in the ship to ship collision > detection routine, but it still slows down just enough to make in annoying. > > Clay and I have been discussing the possibility to adding a math coprocessor > to the multigame kit. This would allow space wars, and any other game > anybody wants to write, to do as much math as they want without suffering > any speed loss. It would also mean that we would have to patch MAME to > properly emulate the new hardware. > > -jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Deuel [mailto:bdeuel ] > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 8:28 PM > To: Vectorlist > Subject: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars > > Anyone know what ever became of this project? Jeff? > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-vectorlist > [mailto:owner-vectorlist ]On Behalf Of jeff hendrix > Sent: Thursday, November 25, 1999 1:20 PM > To: vectorlist > Subject: Space Wars > > My progress on space wars has come a long way, in other words, it's > getting close to being finished. > > I've run into a small snag. I was working on the ship to ship > collision routine and when I got it close to being finished I tested it out > and it slows MAME down to a crawl when it gets called. I'm checking every > segment against every segment in the opposite ship. I'm checking 11 on ship > 1 and 9 on ship 2 for a total of 99 checks. > > I'm implementing the following formula for each segment check (re-written in > assembly, of course, for a total of about 300 lines of code) > > x1,y1 - shot initial position > x2,y2 - shot new position > x3,y3 - last point from ship used to check collision > x4,y4 - new point from ship used to check collision > a1=y2-y1 > b1=x1-x2 > c1=x2*y1-x1*y2 > r1=a1*x3+b1*y3+c1 > r2=a1*x4+b1*y4+c1 > if r1 & r2 !=0 & have same sign, they don't intersect > a2=y4-y3 > b2=x3-x4 > c2=x4*y3-x3*y4 > r1=a2*x1+b2*y1+c2 > r2=a2*x2+b2*y2+c2 > if r1 & r2 have same sign, they don't intersect > > This works find for shot collision detection (I'm using the old shot > position and the new shot position for the line endpoints), but it's way too > slow for ship to ship. > What I'm wondering is, does anybody have a simpler way to check for the > intersection of 2 lines? > > -jeff > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . -- Windows: 32 bit graphical interface for a 16 bit patch for an 8 bit operating system written for a 4 bit processor by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 17:06:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA10692 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:06:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA28076 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:00:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95BE8 > From: jeff hendrix To: "'vectorlist > Subject: RE: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:46:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO a Scenix processor running at 50MHz. BTW- this is Clay's suggestion, and he would be the one pulling off the magic to get this to work. -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow [mailto:aek ] Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 2:21 PM To: vectorlist Subject: RE: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars "The changes to MAME would be to emulate the fast math processor that would be part of the vector multigame kit. " I guess I'm coming into this late. What kind of part are you thinking of using (DSP?) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 18:06:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA21168 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:06:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA28371 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:06:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <002d01bf6dd0$4a3cffc0$4fba99d1@super-portable> From: "Jeff Bovee" To: Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:53:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO Would the co-processor also speed up the operation of the native Space Duel game? That could be really difficult to play, I've always had my butt kicked by the original hardware! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 18:08:55 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA21479 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:08:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA28340 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:58:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000202145241.007fbc20@earthlink.net> X-Sender: winslow@earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 14:52:41 -0800 To: vectorlist From: Steven Winslow Subject: Re: VECTOR: Test message Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO PARDON... This is a check. Haven't received any of my previous checks..... At 04:02 AM 2/1/00 GMT, you wrote: >Haven't seen any traffic. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the >** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other >** questions, comments, or problems to neil . > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 18:15:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA22511 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:15:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA28471 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:20:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <3898B89C.DDB87F11 > Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 16:07:08 -0700 From: Jess Askey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars References: <002d01bf6dd0$4a3cffc0$4fba99d1 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO Actually, this is exactly what the Mathbox is doing. Jess Askey wrote: > > Im guessing that the co-processor would be stuck in the address range where there is some > space available. The native Space Duel code wouldn't even know it was there and therefore > the game would play exactly as usual. The purpose of the co-processor is sort of just like > a helper. If the game code wants to do a complicated computation but not sacrifice display > updates, then it would give the co-processor a chuck of data and some info on what to do > with it, then when the co-processor was done, it would signal the game code and let it > know that the data is done being processed. The game code would now have it's answer > without having to hardly any work. > The co-processor would just be a tool that was there if a programmer wanted to use it. > > Jeff Bovee wrote: > > > > Would the co-processor also speed up the operation of the native Space Duel > > game? That could be really difficult to play, I've always had my butt > > kicked by the original hardware! > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > > ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other > > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 18:21:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA23542 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:21:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA28441 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:15:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <3898B761.C36DD20C > Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 16:01:53 -0700 From: Jess Askey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars References: <002d01bf6dd0$4a3cffc0$4fba99d1@super-portable> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO Im guessing that the co-processor would be stuck in the address range where there is some space available. The native Space Duel code wouldn't even know it was there and therefore the game would play exactly as usual. The purpose of the co-processor is sort of just like a helper. If the game code wants to do a complicated computation but not sacrifice display updates, then it would give the co-processor a chuck of data and some info on what to do with it, then when the co-processor was done, it would signal the game code and let it know that the data is done being processed. The game code would now have it's answer without having to hardly any work. The co-processor would just be a tool that was there if a programmer wanted to use it. Jeff Bovee wrote: > > Would the co-processor also speed up the operation of the native Space Duel > game? That could be really difficult to play, I've always had my butt > kicked by the original hardware! > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 18:28:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA24633 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:28:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA28511 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:25:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:25:30 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: Test message In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000202145241.007fbc20@earthlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Steven Winslow wrote: > PARDON... > This is a check. Haven't received any of my previous checks..... Can we please stop with sending test messages to the list? The list is up and working. I watch things almost every hour of the day that I'm awake. So far we've found *NO* problems with the list or with Synthcom itself. I keep email logs that go back a week, as well as Majordomo requests. FWIW, I also run 17 other mailing lists, and any time someone has a problem posting it has been something beyond Synthcom. So in the future, if you have problems getting mail from the list or to the list, EMAIL ME DIRECTLY and I can troubleshoot it on a case by case basis. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Synthcom home : http://www.synthcom.com Synthcom Systems, Inc. Y2K Dumbness - "Instant noodle meals are disappearing." ICQ # 29402898 "Hordes coming for my Ramen stash? I'm getting my gun." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 22:32:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA24909 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 22:32:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA29469 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 19:36:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <20000203032247.57241.qmail > X-Originating-IP: [24.6.217.124] From: "Clay Cowgill" To: vectorlist Subject: RE: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:22:47 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO >I guess I'm coming into this late. What kind of part are you thinking of >using (DSP?) Scenix. :-) 50MHz SX18 with a CPLD that makes a register set for the 6502 to talk to in memory. Basically write two values (bytes or words) and then write a 5th location that serves as the operation type (mul, div, sqrt, whatever...) and a "go" signal to the Scenix. I don't remember the exact numbers, but I think it came out to something like ~16 6502 instructions for a 16x16 signed multiply (including store and fetch). 8x8 multiplies were like one 6502 instruction (time-wise on a Space Duel). A 100MHz part buys you a little better performance. (Most of the time is just in storing and reading the 4 bytes of the math registers.) -Clay ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 23:11:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA29859 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:11:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA29535 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 19:58:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <20000203034430.3551.qmail > X-Originating-IP: [24.6.217.124] From: "Clay Cowgill" To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:44:30 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO >Actually, this is exactly what the Mathbox is doing. Yep. It's just a two-chip mathbox. It's nothing super-tricky-- just using the app-note math routines for the Scenix/PIC. The Scenix for the most part is a true one-cycle per instruction processor (so it's about 2-3 times as fast as a 6502, cycle-wise) and then it's running at a healthy 50MHz. So basically the performance is really close to 100-150 times that of a 1.5MHz 6502 running equivalent code on average. It can be a little better or worse depending on some instruction-set differences. (So for a sorta crude example: let's say that a 16-bit multiply in the 6502 takes about 650 cycles. At 1.5MHz that's about 433us. The Scenix would blast through the same problem in about 96 Scenix-cycles. However, those cycles are at 50MHz, so the total time is about 1.92us, or a bit over 220 *times* faster. Even if it takes another 20 cycles to get stuff written back out to the CPLD registers that's only around 2.32us... That's about half the amount of time it'd take the 1.5MHz 6502 to do the "JSR" instruction to go start the problem on its own. Most operations will take longer for the 6502 to read the results than for the Scenix to calculate them!) -Clay ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Wed Feb 2 23:19:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA30738 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:19:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA29578 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:13:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:00:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200002030400.UAA17239 > From: Andrew Wilson To: vectorlist In-reply-to: <20000203034430.3551.qmail ) Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars References: <20000203034430.3551.qmail > Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO Long-time vectorlisters will note that Clay's been dying to find an excuse to use this part in a project for a while now =) Drew X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f X-Originating-IP: [24.6.217.124] From: "Clay Cowgill" Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:44:30 PST Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist X-UIDL: 1a27ba091ae3aaf1ffa0377703c4b441 >Actually, this is exactly what the Mathbox is doing. Yep. It's just a two-chip mathbox. It's nothing super-tricky-- just using the app-note math routines for the Scenix/PIC. The Scenix for the most part is a true one-cycle per instruction processor (so it's about 2-3 times as fast as a 6502, cycle-wise) and then it's running at a healthy 50MHz. So basically the performance is really close to 100-150 times that of a 1.5MHz 6502 running equivalent code on average. It can be a little better or worse depending on some instruction-set differences. (So for a sorta crude example: let's say that a 16-bit multiply in the 6502 takes about 650 cycles. At 1.5MHz that's about 433us. The Scenix would blast through the same problem in about 96 Scenix-cycles. However, those cycles are at 50MHz, so the total time is about 1.92us, or a bit over 220 *times* faster. Even if it takes another 20 cycles to get stuff written back out to the CPLD registers that's only around 2.32us... That's about half the amount of time it'd take the 1.5MHz 6502 to do the "JSR" instruction to go start the problem on its own. Most operations will take longer for the 6502 to read the results than for the Scenix to calculate them!) -Clay ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Thu Feb 3 00:03:09 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA03359 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:03:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA29666 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:59:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <002901bf6e11$805de600$4be1c5d1@mkosalka> From: "Gregg Woodcock" To: References: <009c01bf5def$894c5030$d368370f > Subject: Re: VECTOR: WTB: Star Wars parts Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 22:38:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: Joel Rosenzweig To: Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 9:56 AM Subject: VECTOR: WTB: Star Wars parts > I'm looking to buy a Star Wars wiring harness and board cage. If you have > either available, would you send me a note? I'm still restoring my Star > Wars, soon to be Empire Strikes Back, machine. I can't wait to see I have a spare wiring harness somewhere; let me know what you have for trade. Right now I need WORKING boardsets for Asteroids, Battle Zone, Asteroids Deluxe and Star Wars... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Thu Feb 3 00:03:40 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA03406 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:03:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA29683 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 21:03:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <20000203044950.56380.qmail > X-Originating-IP: [24.6.217.124] From: "Clay Cowgill" To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:49:50 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO > Long-time vectorlisters will note that Clay's been dying to find >an >excuse to use this part in a project for a while now =) Tffffffppppp!!! :-P I tell you... It's a solution just LOOKING for a problem! (...and by god, I spent $70 on the little development "key" thingy for it from Jameco, so I *will* find a use for it someday... :-) -Clay ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Thu Feb 3 00:32:59 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA06554 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:32:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA29765 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 21:31:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:18:25 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars In-Reply-To: <20000203044950.56380.qmail > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Clay Cowgill wrote: > I tell you... It's a solution just LOOKING for a problem! (...and by Ya know, I am wondering why a co-processor is needed for Space War on Space Duel hardware, since SD manages to do the colision detection, AND keep all the other objects moving. Seems to me SW with just 2 ships would be less of a drain. I thought the point of these projects was the retro-hardware, remembering when Real Programmers wrote self-modifying code, used op-codes as constants, and let the index register overflow into the program counter to end a loop. :-) (This is not meant as a slight to the SW author, as I doubt I could even get any of these machines to say 'Hello, world!'. I am mostly expecting a "You dumb-ass, SW needs more power because of X ." ) -ChrisA ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Thu Feb 3 01:03:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA09382 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 01:03:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA29907 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 22:10:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <000701bf6e1b$503b5020$f6e1c5d1@mkosalka> From: "Gregg Woodcock" To: References: <20000124002327.8124.qmail > Subject: VECTOR: Trade: my WG color XY HV units for your deflection boards? Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:50:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO As has happened several times now, I have ended up with a dearth of HV units but very few deflection boards and I'd like to even my stock up a bit. I'll trade 1 for 1, working or not (same for same) my HV units for your deflection boards. I have many spares of each so if anybody needs some parts, let me know what you have for trade... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Thu Feb 3 01:53:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA13494 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 01:53:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA30071 for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 22:53:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <20000203064006.97052.qmail > X-Originating-IP: [24.6.217.124] From: "Clay Cowgill" To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 22:40:06 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO >Ya know, I am wondering why a co-processor is needed for Space War on Space >Duel hardware, since SD manages to do the colision detection, AND keep all >the other objects moving. Not to answer on Jeff's behalf or anything, but he's doing real point-on-line collision checking which is a fair amount of math. Space Duel (and Asteroids and its kin) are using simple bounding-box checks that are a lot faster, but less accurate. Jeff's Space War could concievably know the exact part of the ship hit, so you could blow off an engine or all sorts of possibilities. I understand the "write to the real hardware" side of the argument, but on the other hand Atari themselves built elaborate mathboxes (Red Baron, Battlezone, Tempest, Star Wars) and used multiple processors (Star Wars, Major Havoc) to get some more horsepower out of their designs. Besides, there's not many people writing new code for these things as it is, much less many people willing to hand-tune assembly for a few months to sell 30 copies of the game when it's done. ;-) -Clay ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Thu Feb 3 02:59:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA18546 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 02:59:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA30294 for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:01:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 02:48:35 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars In-Reply-To: <20000203064006.97052.qmail > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Clay Cowgill wrote: > Not to answer on Jeff's behalf or anything, but he's doing real > point-on-line collision checking which is a fair amount of math. Space Duel You left out the dumb-ass part -- but that explains it. (I really wasn't busting on Jeff's ability, it just seemed odd). > (and Asteroids and its kin) are using simple bounding-box checks that are a > lot faster, but less accurate. Jeff's Space War could concievably know the > exact part of the ship hit, so you could blow off an engine or all sorts of > possibilities. Cool. > the other hand Atari themselves built elaborate mathboxes (Red Baron, > Battlezone, Tempest, Star Wars) and used multiple processors (Star Wars, OK -- you've convinced me. I was never one for hand-tuning assembly anyway -- just reading about those who did. :-) -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Thu Feb 3 08:21:51 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA09745 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:21:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA31390 for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 05:25:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <001b01bf6e48$42b63000$45ba99d1@super-portable> From: "Jeff Bovee" To: Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:12:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO On Clay's behalf the Scenix micro is pretty cool.... They have even released Java and embedded TCP/IP for it, in the words of Tim Allen "Oh! Oh! Oh! More Power!!" :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Thu Feb 3 09:05:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15697 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:05:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA31548 for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 06:12:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-Id: <4.3.0.33.0.20000203084817.00d8ed30@207.69.200.243> X-Sender: us001378@207.69.200.243 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.33 (Beta) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 08:56:19 -0500 To: Vector List From: Jon Raiford Subject: VECTOR: Asteroids Deluxe Problem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO I am fixing an AD for a friend of mine and it has some weird behavior. Check out ftp://arcade.ne.mediaone.net/incoming/astdlx/ADProblem.mpg. This is only a problem during the high score screen. Occasionally, there are some random vectors when objects pass through this area, but generally they are fine. And test mode works great. I thought maybe the DAC for the X axis was maybe having problems, but now I'm not sure. Unless anyone has any great insight, I'm just going to let them have it as-is and wait until it gets worse to fix it (after all, I'm not getting paid for the work). I also put the UV protectant in this game as well. If you want to see a screen shot, check out ftp://arcade.ne.mediaone.net/incoming/astdlx/Asteroids Deluxe Screen.jpg. Notice that you can't see the tube at all (not just because its a crappy pic either). Thanks again Rodger for that idea.. Jon --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Thu Feb 3 09:45:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA21534 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:45:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA31694 for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 06:49:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <200002031436.JAA28957@saturn3.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars To: vectorlist Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:36:09 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <20000203064006.97052.qmail > from "Clay Cowgill" at Feb 02, 2000 10:40:06 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO > >Ya know, I am wondering why a co-processor is needed for Space War on Space > >Duel hardware, since SD manages to do the colision detection, AND keep all > >the other objects moving. > > Not to answer on Jeff's behalf or anything, but he's doing real > point-on-line collision checking which is a fair amount of math. Space Duel I too am wondering why a co-processor is needed. To say "he's doing real" hard stuff doesn't justify adding a co-processor. Just don't do such an elaborate collision detection. Here's a suggestion: 1) Do a bounding box check first - there should not be more than 1 or *2* bullets within the box at any time. I assume he's doing this already. 2) For each bullet within the box, rotate/translate the bullet into ship coordinates and check against a table representing the outline of the ship. Ya, the rotate will take 4 multiplies, but that's gotta be faster than anything dealing with each line :-) BTW, as for the scenix. I was a little let down that they cloned the PIC '54 architecture. I wrote a chess program for the PIC16C63 that just needs a little more RAM and stack than the scenix. It takes 30-60 seconds to make a move and can look up to 6 moves ahead. I've been meaning to wire up a PIC 16C923 with built in LCD controller to run it :-) No doubt this is the smallest chess engine in the world (written in C yet). -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Thu Feb 3 11:08:18 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA03124 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:08:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA31946 for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:09:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95BEA > From: jeff hendrix To: "'vectorlist > Subject: RE: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:55:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO I do bounding box checks first (this is a must). That's all I had it doing at first, but there's no way to determine which "part" of the ship got hit, so I have to check the segments. Shot to ship checks are just fine. One line (with endpoints at the old shot and new shot positions) checking against the segments of the ship. The problem is when both ships get within each others bounding boxes. Then I have to check each segment of the first ship against each segment of the second ship. I originally had 9 and 11 segments for a total of 99 checks and each check requires several multiplies, and since the 6502 doesn't have a multiply, it takes several hundred lines of instruction to do each check. (I've since cut the bounding segments down to 6 and 8, it's not as accurate, but it's a little faster, but still not fast enough) I had also hoped to eventually write a 4 player space wars, but using my current collision detection, it would probably bring to game to a halt if all 4 ships were colliding at the same time. I've posted this before, but if anybody has a suggestion on how to spead up accurate collision detection, please let me know. I'm implementing the following formula for each segment check (re-written in assembly, of course, for a total of about 300 lines of code. Remeber the 6502 only has add, sub,and shift) x1,y1 - segment initial position x2,y2 - segment new position x3,y3 - last point from ship used to check collision x4,y4 - new point from ship used to check collision a1=y2-y1 b1=x1-x2 c1=x2*y1-x1*y2 r1=a1*x3+b1*y3+c1 r2=a1*x4+b1*y4+c1 if r1 & r2 !=0 & have same sign, they don't intersect a2=y4-y3 b2=x3-x4 c2=x4*y3-x3*y4 r1=a2*x1+b2*y1+c2 r2=a2*x2+b2*y2+c2 if r1 & r2 have same sign, they don't intersect This works find for shot collision detection (I'm using the old shot position and the new shot position for the line endpoints), but it's way too slow for ship to ship. -jeff -----Original Message----- From: Paul Kahler [mailto:phkahler@Oakland.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 7:36 AM To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars > >Ya know, I am wondering why a co-processor is needed for Space War on Space > >Duel hardware, since SD manages to do the colision detection, AND keep all > >the other objects moving. > > Not to answer on Jeff's behalf or anything, but he's doing real > point-on-line collision checking which is a fair amount of math. Space Duel I too am wondering why a co-processor is needed. To say "he's doing real" hard stuff doesn't justify adding a co-processor. Just don't do such an elaborate collision detection. Here's a suggestion: 1) Do a bounding box check first - there should not be more than 1 or *2* bullets within the box at any time. I assume he's doing this already. 2) For each bullet within the box, rotate/translate the bullet into ship coordinates and check against a table representing the outline of the ship. Ya, the rotate will take 4 multiplies, but that's gotta be faster than anything dealing with each line :-) BTW, as for the scenix. I was a little let down that they cloned the PIC '54 architecture. I wrote a chess program for the PIC16C63 that just needs a little more RAM and stack than the scenix. It takes 30-60 seconds to make a move and can look up to 6 moves ahead. I've been meaning to wire up a PIC 16C923 with built in LCD controller to run it :-) No doubt this is the smallest chess engine in the world (written in C yet). -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Thu Feb 3 11:30:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA07001 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:29:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA32005 for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:29:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-Id: <200002031614.KAA19136 > Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:14:32 -0600 (CST) From: "Mark A. Jenison" X-Sender: jenison@crecendo To: "'vectorlist > Subject: RE: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars In-Reply-To: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95BEA > MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, jeff hendrix wrote: > The problem is when both ships get within each others bounding boxes. Then I > have to check each segment of the first ship against each segment of the > second ship. I originally had 9 and 11 segments for a total of 99 checks and > each check requires several multiplies, and since the 6502 doesn't have a > multiply, it takes several hundred lines of instruction to do each check. > (I've since cut the bounding segments down to 6 and 8, it's not as accurate, > but it's a little faster, but still not fast enough) I guess I would ask "Why are you doing segment checking on the ships?". I would think if the ships met via bounding box check, that both are probably destroyed. What does it buy you to do this granularity of checking? And is it worth it to have to produce an entire piece of hardware for it? Just curious... -- Mark Jenison --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Thu Feb 3 11:54:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA11411 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:54:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA32059 for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:47:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000203093020.00aca4c0@207.20.108.98> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:31:46 -0700 To: vectorlist From: Anders Knudsen Subject: RE: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars In-Reply-To: <200002031614.KAA19136 > References: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95BEA > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO >I guess I would ask "Why are you doing segment checking on the ships?". I >would think if the ships met via bounding box check, that both are >probably destroyed. What does it buy you to do this granularity of >checking? And is it worth it to have to produce an entire piece of >hardware for it? Uhm...if you remember Space Wars...you would remember that you can have "parts" of a ship get blown or broken off. So, if you collide slightly, or get shot just in the tail, you are only crippled, not yet destroyed... -anders. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Thu Feb 3 12:21:44 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA16179 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:21:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA32177 for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:15:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-Id: <200002031701.LAA21468 > Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:01:49 -0600 (CST) From: "Mark A. Jenison" X-Sender: jenison@crecendo To: vectorlist Subject: RE: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000203093020.00aca4c0@207.20.108.98> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Anders Knudsen wrote: > > >I guess I would ask "Why are you doing segment checking on the ships?". I > >would think if the ships met via bounding box check, that both are > >probably destroyed. What does it buy you to do this granularity of > >checking? And is it worth it to have to produce an entire piece of > >hardware for it? > > Uhm...if you remember Space Wars...you would remember that you can have > "parts" of a ship get blown or broken off. Having never played Space Wars (*ducking for cover*), I did not know this. It was before my time. However, I do remember wanting it for my Atari 2600 based solely on the description :-) > So, if you collide slightly, or > get shot just in the tail, you are only crippled, not yet destroyed... I figured the shooting part out, but there are cases where you can collide and just be damaged slightly?? Interesting.... So your answer is "it's needed to simulate the original game". Ok, just curious. The closest thing I've played to Space Wars is my friends Orbit, though it wasn't particularly intriguing. Is it possible you could still just do bounded box checking, and depending on the current position and rotation of each ship, just do a generic lookup of what collision scenario has taken place, without doing actual checking? (ie, ship on the left hits ship on the right, both facing the same direction; do basic "ship A's head hits ship B's tail" routine; or something like that...kind of fake that it knows what happened). -- Mark Jenison --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Thu Feb 3 12:39:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA19120 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:39:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA32189 for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:16:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:02:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200002031703.JAA23145 > From: Andrew Wilson To: vectorlist In-reply-to: <4.2.2.20000203093020.00aca4c0@207.20.108.98> (message from Anders Knudsen on Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:31:46 -0700) Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars References: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95BEA > <4.2.2.20000203093020.00aca4c0@207.20.108.98> Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO Forgive me if you've already done something like this, but... Does it give you enough of a speed up if you do trivial rejection on each individual segment (i.e. check the bounding boxes of the ships first, and if they intersect, check the bounding boxes of each line segment before doing any of the multiplies)? This could drastically reduce the # of line segments you have to use the costly collision check on. One other suggestion I might have is to translate all the line segment coordinates to a common new coordinate system. Since your ships are fairly small, you ought to be able to translate all the line segments to be 8-bits (based on the origin of the upper-left-most ship bounding box), which will save you some time on some of the multiplies and divides (multiplying two 8-bit #s into a 16-bit is twice as fast as mulitplying two 16-bit #s, as I recall). This translation would only need to be done if the ship bounding boxes intersect, of course. Drew X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:31:46 -0700 From: Anders Knudsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist X-UIDL: f681e7e4ce2f43e6d689a1b728d3f36b >I guess I would ask "Why are you doing segment checking on the ships?". I >would think if the ships met via bounding box check, that both are >probably destroyed. What does it buy you to do this granularity of >checking? And is it worth it to have to produce an entire piece of >hardware for it? Uhm...if you remember Space Wars...you would remember that you can have "parts" of a ship get blown or broken off. So, if you collide slightly, or get shot just in the tail, you are only crippled, not yet destroyed... -anders. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Thu Feb 3 12:51:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA21031 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:51:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA32040 for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:42:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhRYNNrAj1DT2YgA3LKOSY4RaBpUHQIUItYQ3iApF+C1aul4YDgCDpo08y4= From: MILSOM44@webtv.net (jason Milsom) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:28:53 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: Asteroids Deluxe Problem Message-ID: <17431-3899ACC5-1652@storefull-163.iap.bryant.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: Jon Raiford 's message of Thu, 03 Feb 2000 08:56:19 -0500 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO It looks to me like your problem with the Asteroids Deluxe is with the monitor and not the board. Probably weak main deflection transistors. Try reducing the screen size from the pots on the game board. Jason Milsom http://community.webtv.net/MILSOM44/MilsomsPuband --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Thu Feb 3 13:15:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA25262 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:15:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA32389 for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:16:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <200002031803.NAA09277@saturn3.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars To: vectorlist Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:03:06 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95BEA > from "jeff hendrix" at Feb 03, 2000 08:55:33 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO > The problem is when both ships get within each others bounding boxes. Then I Got it. Consider this (and shoot it down if it's not good). Make a low resolution "bitmap" of each ship. Then check 10-20 points of the opposing ship to see if they collide with this bitmap. Now you may think this requires transforming all those points into bitmap coordinates, but think again. The center of rotation can just be translated into bitmap coordinates. Then neighboring points can be gotten to by adding the basis vectors of the rotation matrix - if you stick to an integer grid, you'll just add/subtract sin,cos values to move to new points (kind of like the Apple II shape tables). You could hard code the add/subtract combinations once you decide what shape to use, or stick to a table. For example, to check a rectangular ship you may start at a point and then make the following moves: UP,UP,RIGHT,DOWM,DOWN,LEFT where the vectors are defined: UP = (-sin(a),cos(a)) RIGHT = (cos(a),sin(a)) DOWN = (sin(a),-cos(a)) LEFT = (-cos(a),-sin(a)) use 8 bit fixed point values and then cut them down to 4 bits and combine to form a 8 bit index into the bitmap for the other ship. The bitmap can tell you what part you hit. The hardest part on a 6502 will be combining the upper 4 bits of the 4.4 fixed point numbers - Hmmm, you'll need to keep to a 8x8 pixel bitmap to avoid wrap-around collisions within the bitmap. This could may work really good if you use a "compiled shape table" to check points in the opponents bitmap :-) You could OR together all the pixels you step on in the bitmap and use different bits to indicate what part of the ship each pixel is. That way the scanning would not require any conditionals, and the result would be a byte that tells you what you hit. Gosh I'm thinking with clarity today :-) Lemme know if I've conveyed this idea well enough. BTW, I've never heard of this method used. As far as I know this is the first publication of this algorithm. Vectorlist is cool :-) BTW2, this idea is based in part on some fast bitmap rotation code I did several years ago that is available at: http://www.oakland.edu/~phkahler in the graphics demos section. (ya, shameless plug). Thanks, -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to vectorlist-request . Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil . From owner-vectorlist Thu Feb 3 14:11:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: from synthcom.com (ip67.usw3.rb1.pdx.nwlink.com [207.202.141.67]) by smarty.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA02428 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:11:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA32586 for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:59:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-vectorlist ) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-vectorlist using -f Message-ID: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95BEB > From: jeff hendrix To: "'vectorlist > Subject: RE: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:45:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Status: RO I'm making one of the ships at 0,0 so all the calculations are 8 bit. I've been trying to figure out a way to determine which segments to limit the checking to, but I keep running into problems. Each ship has 3 different sections, so I should be able to eliminate at least one from each (in theory) It takes some calculation to not only determine what angle they are approaching each other, but what direction each ship is facing in relation to that angle, and in a lot of cases I would only be able to eliminate one segment. The other variable is if the segment is already gone and it would have to check the segments on the opposite side of the ship (in which case we would want to throw out those segments) If anybody wants to see the current state of space wars, download the following file and throw it in you mame rom directory. http://www.diac.com/~jeffh/vector/Spacduel.zip -jeff -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Wilson [mailto:awilson ] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 10:03 AM To: vectorlist Subject: Re: VECTOR: RE: Space Wars Forgive me if you've already done something like this, but... Does it give you enough of a speed up if you do trivial rejection on each individual segment (i.e. check the bounding boxes of the ships first, and if they intersect, check the bounding boxes of each line segment before doing any of the multiplies)? This could drastically reduce the # of line segments you have to use the costly collision check on. One other suggestion I might have is to tran