From mypearl@dds.nl Sun Jan  2 09:57:13 2000
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From: Tek <mypearl@dds.nl>
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Hi Clay,

Whatever happened to these kits you produced? I have an original ESB, but it
would be nice to be able to play both games!

Cya !

From raiford  Sun Jan  2 10:00:29 2000
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To: vectorlist 
From: Jon Raiford <raiford >
Subject: Re: Wells Gardner Prob
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Check the outputs on the game board.  Maybe the monitor is working fine.
You should see the x and y outputs swinging a few volts (check using AC
on a digital meter or DC on an analog).

Jon

At 10:05 PM 01/01/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>Update.
>
>      Resoldered all the deflection(?) board connections....  Still have the
>spot killer ON and no horizontal deflection........   Could this be a high
>voltage problem??  It has voltage (has to be discharged) from the high
>voltage wire going to the pic tube........  I am lost....   maybe my game is
>not Y2k compliant ......   :^)
>
>Dusty
>self proclaimed asteroid freak
>
>P.S.  Thanks to ALL for suggestions......

From nej@airmail.net Sun Jan  2 11:06:21 2000
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Tek wrote:
> 
> Hi Clay,
> 
> Whatever happened to these kits you produced? I have an original ESB, but it
> would be nice to be able to play both games!
> 
> Cya !


Tek,

I hope I'm wrong about this, but it is my understanding that Clay has
left the Vectorlist ever since a few people who rarely contribute
anything to the list admonished him for posting a few de-soldering
stations at an incredible price.  Clearly, Clay was not posting with a
"profit motive" and was doing so primarily for the benefit of fellow
vectorlisters.  (A fact that went unnoticed by many)  I for one think
Clay was one of our most valuable resources and sincerely wish that he
would come back.  You might try emailing him directly, I am pretty sure
these kits are still available.  

Thanks,
Noel

From dnagle  Sun Jan  2 20:01:05 2000
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From: "Dusty Nagle" <dnagle >
To: <vectorlist >
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Subject: Was Wells Gardner Prob - Now X Prob!!
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 21:13:58 -0500
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Jon says:

> Check the outputs on the game board.  Maybe the monitor is working fine.
> You should see the x and y outputs swinging a few volts (check using AC
> on a digital meter or DC on an analog).

I had previously checked these with an analog meter on DC and could see a
little back and forth movement on the meter hand.  I figured all was well.
Just now got back in from resoldering the rest of the oxidized joints on the
deflection board.  No change.  I remeasured X out and Y out on the "AC"
setting of my analog.  Y shows 3-4 volts.  X shows zilch.  I now fugure that
monitor is fine and X is defunct on game board.  What components do I check
for the missing X signal??

Thanks again for all help.

Dusty
A little closer to blasting the scumbag saucer now I think :^)

From player2  Sun Jan  2 22:04:23 2000
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From: "PlayerTwo" <player2 >
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Subject: Tech: Omega Race Vector Squiggles
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BF5575.5E8D0CE0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Hey folks, got a problem and could use your help to narrow it down.  =
I've got a fully working Omega Race that powers up, plays fine, sounds =
good.  However, rather than nice, smoothly drawn lines, I'm getting tiny =
squiggles.  You can still make out all the shapes, images well enough to =
play the game, and as it warms up, it gets a little better. =20

Initially thought it was the monitor, but after trying out three =
different monitors, and a different harness/power supply, I'm pretty =
sure it's the boardset.  I'm guessing a DAC or cap, but would appreciate =
any input you might have.

(I know, I know, I probably shouldn't be complaining, since it's working =
at all... <grin>)

P2

------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BF5575.5E8D0CE0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hey folks, got a problem and could =
use your help=20
to narrow it down.&nbsp; I've got a fully working Omega Race that powers =
up,=20
plays fine, sounds good.&nbsp; However, rather than nice, smoothly drawn =
lines,=20
I'm getting tiny squiggles.&nbsp; You can still make out all the shapes, =
images=20
well enough to play the game, and as it warms up, it gets a little =
better.&nbsp;=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Initially thought it was the =
monitor, but after=20
trying out three different monitors, and a different harness/power =
supply, I'm=20
pretty sure it's the boardset.&nbsp; I'm guessing a DAC or cap, but =
would=20
appreciate any input you might have.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>(I know, I know, I probably =
shouldn't be=20
complaining, since it's working at all... &lt;grin&gt;)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>P2</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BF5575.5E8D0CE0--

From jwelser  Mon Jan  3 10:43:51 2000
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To: vectorlist 
Subject: Re: AM6012 DAC replacement (Tempest)???
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	I didn't see that anyone replied to this message, but I could be
wrong, so if this is redundant info, sue me... :)

	The Tempest schematics show the board with both the 3410s and the
6012s. So, for all intents and purposes, the MC3410 is a replacement for
the 6012, in Atari Color Vector boards.  As far as I know, all of the
boards have the "option" to be populated with MC3410s (and there are some
other circuit differences.)

	I don't think MC3410s arereally any easier to find them AM6012s,
I'm afraid...

Joe

On Fri, 24 Dec 1999, Noel Johnson wrote:

> 
> Hello all,
> 
> I was just looking over some of my non-working Tempest boards and I
> found one that doesn't have AM6012 dac's.  Instead of the AM6012 dacs at
> locations A10 and F10 on the main board, those slots are unpopulated and
> there are two MC3410CL motorola chips at locations B10 and E10.  The
> motorola chips are 16 pin, with a gold top and legs, whereas the
> AM6012's on my other boards are 20 pin.  The rest of the chips in this
> section of the board appear identical to my other boards.  Might these
> motorola chips be a replacement for the AM6012's on my other boards?  I
> am hoping that they might be easier to find and cheaper.  Per review of
> Philips website the MC3410C series are 10-bit Multiplying
> Digital-to-Analog Converters.  Anyone care to comment?
> 
> Thanks/Happy Holidays!
> 
> Noel
> 

------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph J. Welser                       jwelser 
Design Engineer -- Crystal Semiconductor Corporation
Ph.D. Student in E.E. -- University of Texas at Austin	
Work:  jwelser 
P.O. Box 17847; Austin, TX  78760
------------------------------------------------------------------

From nej2001  Mon Jan  3 11:10:07 2000
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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:10:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Noel Johnson <nej2001 >
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Subject: Re: AM6012 DAC replacement (Tempest)???
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> 	I didn't see that anyone replied to this message,
> but I could be
> wrong, so if this is redundant info, sue me... :)
> 	The Tempest schematics show the board with both the
> 3410s and the
> 6012s. So, for all intents and purposes, the MC3410
> is a replacement for
> the 6012, in Atari Color Vector boards.  As far as I
> know, all of the
> boards have the "option" to be populated with
> MC3410s (and there are some
> other circuit differences.)
> 
> 	I don't think MC3410s arereally any easier to find
> them AM6012s,
> I'm afraid...
> 
> Joe

Thanks Joe for the response!  I have learned a little
more since I posted that message.  After researching
possible replacements for the AM6012PC I concluded
that Analog Device's DAC312 might be a drop in
replacement at a cost of around $6.50 to $8.00 per
chip.  The DAC312 is a currently manufactured chip. 
Then I did a web search for "DAC312" and I got the
arcade schematics/data sheets page on www.spies.com as
a hit... Doh!

http://www.spies.com/arcade/schematics/DataSheets/dac312.pdf

Per Spies it also appears that a drop in replacement
for the MC3410 is Analog Device's AD561.

Has anyone successfully used the either the DAC312 or
AD561 on a Tempest board?

Thanks,
Noel 
__________________________________________________
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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From jrr  Mon Jan  3 12:10:14 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 10:11:43 -0800
To: vectorlist 
From: John Robertson <jrr >
Subject: Re: AM6012 DAC replacement (Tempest)???
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I think this was hammered out here a year or two ago...check the archives.
I have certainly seen Atari use the 561's in Asteroids etc. Don't know why 
they wouldn't work here if the pinout is the same. Of course, it's a little 
easier for my I have hundreds of old oddball ICs lying around and I just 
stuff in a socket and then test it out. I don't usually have to actually go 
out and buy these old timer chips...also a large stock of "parts" boards.

The curse of being a pack-rat who runs an archival game business.

John :-#)#

At 09:10 AM 1/3/2000 -0800, you wrote:
> >       I didn't see that anyone replied to this message,
> > but I could be
> > wrong, so if this is redundant info, sue me... :)
> >       The Tempest schematics show the board with both the
> > 3410s and the
> > 6012s. So, for all intents and purposes, the MC3410
> > is a replacement for
> > the 6012, in Atari Color Vector boards.  As far as I
> > know, all of the
> > boards have the "option" to be populated with
> > MC3410s (and there are some
> > other circuit differences.)
> >
> >       I don't think MC3410s arereally any easier to find
> > them AM6012s,
> > I'm afraid...
> >
> > Joe
>
>Thanks Joe for the response!  I have learned a little
>more since I posted that message.  After researching
>possible replacements for the AM6012PC I concluded
>that Analog Device's DAC312 might be a drop in
>replacement at a cost of around $6.50 to $8.00 per
>chip.  The DAC312 is a currently manufactured chip.
>Then I did a web search for "DAC312" and I got the
>arcade schematics/data sheets page on www.spies.com as
>a hit... Doh!
>
>http://www.spies.com/arcade/schematics/DataSheets/dac312.pdf
>
>Per Spies it also appears that a drop in replacement
>for the MC3410 is Analog Device's AD561.
>
>Has anyone successfully used the either the DAC312 or
>AD561 on a Tempest board?
>
>Thanks,
>Noel
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
>http://messenger.yahoo.com


  John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
  Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
  http://www.flippers.com
         "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."    

From jwelser  Mon Jan  3 13:09:40 2000
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Subject: Re: AM6012 DAC replacement (Tempest)???
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On Mon, 3 Jan 2000, Noel Johnson wrote:

> Thanks Joe for the response!  I have learned a little
> more since I posted that message.  After researching
> possible replacements for the AM6012PC I concluded
> that Analog Device's DAC312 might be a drop in
> replacement at a cost of around $6.50 to $8.00 per
> chip.  The DAC312 is a currently manufactured chip. 
> Then I did a web search for "DAC312" and I got the
> arcade schematics/data sheets page on www.spies.com as
> a hit... Doh!
> 
> http://www.spies.com/arcade/schematics/DataSheets/dac312.pdf
> 
> Per Spies it also appears that a drop in replacement
> for the MC3410 is Analog Device's AD561.
> 
> Has anyone successfully used the either the DAC312 or
> AD561 on a Tempest board?

	The DAC312 is a perfect drop-in replacement for an AM6012.
I think we discussed this on vectorlist some time ago (before you were
around.)  I have used DAC312s successfuly to replace AM6012s.

	I hadn't heard that the AD561 was a replacement for the MC3410,
but I never really looked into it at all.

Joe

From nej2001  Mon Jan  3 13:44:38 2000
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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:44:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Noel Johnson <nej2001 >
Reply-To: vectorlist 
Subject: Re: AM6012 DAC replacement (Tempest)???
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> 	The DAC312 is a perfect drop-in replacement for an
> AM6012.
> I think we discussed this on vectorlist some time
> ago (before you were
> around.)  I have used DAC312s successfuly to replace
> AM6012s.
> 
> 	I hadn't heard that the AD561 was a replacement for
> the MC3410,
> but I never really looked into it at all.
> 
> Joe

Actually I was just guessing that since the data sheet
for the AD561 was on Spies, it must be a replacement
for the MC3410.  But per John Robertson's response,
the 561's were used on Asteroids so maybe that's why
there is a data sheet on Spies.  Perhaps Asteroid's 10
bit dac and Tempest's 10 bit dac (only present on
certain board revisions) aren't the same.  In any
event, I'll check the vectorlist archives this
evening.. :-)

Thanks,
Noel
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com

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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 14:06:29 -0600
From: Rodger Boots <rlboots@cedar-rapids.net>
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To: vectorlist 
Subject: Re: AM6012 DAC replacement (Tempest)???
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Someone on this list lives near Dallas, don't they?  Any
interest in going over to Tanners and picking up AD561s?  Last
time I was there he had hundreds of them and very cheap!


Noel Johnson wrote:

> Per Spies it also appears that a drop in replacement
> for the MC3410 is Analog Device's AD561.
>
> Has anyone successfully used the either the DAC312 or
> AD561 on a Tempest board?
>
> Thanks,
> Noel
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://messenger.yahoo.com

--
Windows:

32 bit graphical interface for a
16 bit patch for an
8 bit operating system written for a
4 bit processor by a
2 bit company that can't stand
1 bit of competition.


From tomm  Mon Jan  3 14:21:19 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 14:22:04 -0600
From: tom mcclintock <tomm >
Organization: MG Capital
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To: vectorlist 
Subject: Re: AM6012 DAC replacement (Tempest)???
References: <20000103171005.2380.qmail > <38710145.AB163A29@cedar-rapids.net>
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That would be Noel... ;)



Rodger Boots wrote:
> 
> Someone on this list lives near Dallas, don't they?  Any
> interest in going over to Tanners and picking up AD561s?  Last
> time I was there he had hundreds of them and very cheap!
> 
> Noel Johnson wrote:
> 
> > Per Spies it also appears that a drop in replacement
> > for the MC3410 is Analog Device's AD561.
> >
> > Has anyone successfully used the either the DAC312 or
> > AD561 on a Tempest board?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Noel
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> > http://messenger.yahoo.com
> 
> --
> Windows:
> 
> 32 bit graphical interface for a
> 16 bit patch for an
> 8 bit operating system written for a
> 4 bit processor by a
> 2 bit company that can't stand
> 1 bit of competition.

From nej2001  Mon Jan  3 14:25:59 2000
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From: Noel Johnson <nej2001 >
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Subject: Re: AM6012 DAC replacement (Tempest)???
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--- Rodger Boots <rlboots@cedar-rapids.net> wrote:
> Someone on this list lives near Dallas, don't they? 

That would be me!  :-) (and several others including
Tom McClintock, Gregg Woodcock, etc., etc.)

> Any
> interest in going over to Tanners and picking up
> AD561s?  Last
> time I was there he had hundreds of them and very
> cheap!

Email me directly and I'll be glad to take your
order... :-)  I'm already going over there to grab Jon
Raiford some heatsinks for his 720/major havoc
conversion.. 

LMK,
Noel

 
> 
> Noel Johnson wrote:
> 
> > Per Spies it also appears that a drop in
> replacement
> > for the MC3410 is Analog Device's AD561.
> >
> > Has anyone successfully used the either the DAC312
> or
> > AD561 on a Tempest board?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Noel
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> > http://messenger.yahoo.com
> 
> --
> Windows:
> 
> 32 bit graphical interface for a
> 16 bit patch for an
> 8 bit operating system written for a
> 4 bit processor by a
> 2 bit company that can't stand
> 1 bit of competition.
> 
> 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com

From nej2001  Mon Jan  3 14:45:06 2000
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From: Noel Johnson <nej2001 >
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Subject: Re: AM6012 DAC replacement (Tempest)???
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--- Rodger Boots <rlboots@cedar-rapids.net> wrote:
> Someone on this list lives near Dallas, don't they? 
> Any
> interest in going over to Tanners and picking up
> AD561s?  Last
> time I was there he had hundreds of them and very
> cheap!

I just did a search on:

www.findchips.com    (a great website for finding
chips)

and the best price for AD561's was over $30 apiece! 
Yikes!!  How much did Tanner want for theirs?

Thanks,
noel



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com

From jrr  Mon Jan  3 14:50:55 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 12:52:09 -0800
To: vectorlist 
From: John Robertson <jrr >
Subject: Re: AM6012 DAC replacement (Tempest)???
In-Reply-To: <38710145.AB163A29@cedar-rapids.net>
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They have a budding web site:

http://www.tannerelectronics.com/

John :-#)#

At 02:06 PM 1/3/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>Someone on this list lives near Dallas, don't they?  Any
>interest in going over to Tanners and picking up AD561s?  Last
>time I was there he had hundreds of them and very cheap!
>
>
>Noel Johnson wrote:
>
> > Per Spies it also appears that a drop in replacement
> > for the MC3410 is Analog Device's AD561.
> >
> > Has anyone successfully used the either the DAC312 or
> > AD561 on a Tempest board?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Noel
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> > http://messenger.yahoo.com
>
>--
>Windows:
>
>32 bit graphical interface for a
>16 bit patch for an
>8 bit operating system written for a
>4 bit processor by a
>2 bit company that can't stand
>1 bit of competition.


  John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
  Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
  http://www.flippers.com
         "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."    

From rlboots@cedar-rapids.net Mon Jan  3 15:18:53 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 15:18:43 -0600
From: Rodger Boots <rlboots@cedar-rapids.net>
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Well under $10.  I think it was more like $5, but it has
been a long time since I was there.  The thing to keep in
mind about Tanner is that he is a surplus dealer and you CAN
deal with him.  What I used to do when I'd go to Dallas is
manage to sell him about $80 worth of ICs and take it back
home as DVMs and chips I needed at the time.  We almost
always ended up close to a zero dollar trade.

I must have traded several hundred 2716s to that man!


Noel Johnson wrote:

> --- Rodger Boots <rlboots@cedar-rapids.net> wrote:
> > Someone on this list lives near Dallas, don't they?
> > Any
> > interest in going over to Tanners and picking up
> > AD561s?  Last
> > time I was there he had hundreds of them and very
> > cheap!
>
> I just did a search on:
>
> www.findchips.com    (a great website for finding
> chips)
>
> and the best price for AD561's was over $30 apiece!
> Yikes!!  How much did Tanner want for theirs?
>
> Thanks,
> noel
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://messenger.yahoo.com

--
Windows:

32 bit graphical interface for a
16 bit patch for an
8 bit operating system written for a
4 bit processor by a
2 bit company that can't stand
1 bit of competition.


From rlboots@cedar-rapids.net Mon Jan  3 15:26:58 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 15:26:48 -0600
From: Rodger Boots <rlboots@cedar-rapids.net>
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It's nice to see that he is starting a web presence.  It is even MORE
interesting that he is returning to mail order.  He was concentrating
on walk-in business only.

For those of you that were into computers way back when you built them
yourself (Altair days---pre-Apple) you might remember Tanner as
"Digital Research of Texas", a seller of stuff like 2102 RAM chips.
Back then having 1K BITS of RAM on a chip was a big deal.  And it only
needed one power supply!  Then the 2114 came out and had 4 times the
RAM on a chip (1K x 4).  Back then that was a major thing.


John Robertson wrote:

> They have a budding web site:
>
> http://www.tannerelectronics.com/
>
> John :-#)#
>
> At 02:06 PM 1/3/2000 -0600, you wrote:
> >Someone on this list lives near Dallas, don't they?  Any
> >interest in going over to Tanners and picking up AD561s?  Last
> >time I was there he had hundreds of them and very cheap!
> >
> >
> >Noel Johnson wrote:
> >
> > > Per Spies it also appears that a drop in replacement
> > > for the MC3410 is Analog Device's AD561.
> > >
> > > Has anyone successfully used the either the DAC312 or
> > > AD561 on a Tempest board?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Noel
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> > > http://messenger.yahoo.com
> >
> >--
> >Windows:
> >
> >32 bit graphical interface for a
> >16 bit patch for an
> >8 bit operating system written for a
> >4 bit processor by a
> >2 bit company that can't stand
> >1 bit of competition.
>
>   John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
>   Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
>   http://www.flippers.com
>          "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

--
Windows:

32 bit graphical interface for a
16 bit patch for an
8 bit operating system written for a
4 bit processor by a
2 bit company that can't stand
1 bit of competition.


From phkahler@Oakland.edu Tue Jan  4 09:48:20 2000
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Subject: Re: Vectors OS - was Atari Power supplies
To: vectorlist 
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 100 10:48:17 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <A90265DD6E11D211AD2D0000F87AEA930539CDEA .au> from "Paul Sommers" at Dec 29, 99 07:54:25 am
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There is a store near my house (in America) that sells arcade games - usually
at high prices. He's still in business after several years, so someone must
be paying :-) Anyway he wanted about $900 for Star Wars back in 1996 or so.
I went in the other day and asked about it (he didn't have one in the store
this time) and said it would run $1900-$2000 but he could get one. I was
a little upset that I hadn't got one a few years ago :-)

BTW, I've always wanted to visit Australia. Recently our Motorola rep
gave us a .mpg of a pager commercial they showed over there. HEhehehhe
you people have a great sense of humor!
--
 ___   __   _   _  _
|   \ /  \ | | | || |       phkahler@oakland.edu     Engineer/Programmer
|  _/| || || |_| || |__     " What makes someone care so much?
|_|  |_||_| \___/ |____)      for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H.


> The problem is the same in Australia.
> 
> I have an Asteroids in almost mint condition that I paid $900US for. Price
> is not the issue!!! Getting one is.
> 
> In two years of searching I have not been able to find a color vector. There
> is a Star Wars in the Blue Mountains on it's last legs as it is running 12
> hours per day. God knows what they've done to keep it going but it's looking
> pretty sick. The tech has said he has replaced the flyback about 5 times now
> - when I asked him with what as the parts a scarce he just said "With a
> compatible flyback. It's just a flyback"
> 
> Well, it's not compatible - you should see the weird stuff that's happening
> on the screen. Particularly the Death Star explosion - looks like the CRT is
> about to shatter
> 
> And another collector I know has a Star Wars.
> 
> There was one for sale in our Trading Post about 18 months ago - he wanted
> $1000US for it and as I had done a great job in finding some rare stuff by
> hunting in the country I thought "Nah! Too expensive!" and I have kicked
> myself ever since.
> 
> After 18 months of looking I would pay $2000US for one. Seriously!!!!
> 
> Apart from the odd Asteroids - every single piece of vector stuff was junked
> in the 80's.
> 
> I'm now looking at shipping stuff from the US. But it's hard - every cab has
> a dfifferent weight, shape and location, and the time it takes to get a
> quote from a shipping company seems to be about 2 weeks and it's gone.
> 
> Living in the US would be wonderful for me. Just on a short visit earlier
> this year I saw al sorts of classics still on location and earning money -
> and I wasn't even looking - I just ran upon them.
> 
> When you guys have Thanksgiving next year - REALLY give thanks!!!

From sozdemir  Tue Jan  4 10:30:34 2000
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Message-ID: <D718BF02627CD3119A8200902799EACAFBF2BD >
From: "Ozdemir, Steven S, GOVMK" <sozdemir >
To: vectorlist 
Subject: Tempest on top as we go into the new millennium
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:29:51 -0600 
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G'day folks,

A quick check of VAPS this morning showed that Tempest finished 1999, the
decade, the century and the millennium at the top of the "top collected
game" statistics.  Not surprisingly, Ms. Pacman has been hot on the heels of
Tempest during 1998/1999.  (Historically, Robotron was nipping at Tempest's
heels when I ran VAPS in the early/mid 90's, however it's dropped to 12th
and needs 75 more in VAPS to begin to challenge Tempest once again.)

I've always found the "top collected game" statistic to be the best
indicator of popularity, since votes for this statistic cost hundreds of
dollars a piece.  Anyone can say a given game is their favorite, but when it
comes to coughing up hundreds of dollars (for what some might argue are
"unreliable games"), well the rubber meets the road, eh?

At one point someone suggested turning the vectorlist into a newsgroup.  The
general concensus seemed to be that our signal to noise ratio was fine.
However, I think we've all lamented the S/N ratio of RGVAC during the last
few years.  While moderation of RGVAC has been considered at times, it never
seems to be viable (for many reasons).

Someone pointed me to http://www.slashdot.org as another possible way to
improve S/N ratio where randomly selected moderators from a pool of folks
filter RGVAC's articles and place the results on a website.  The filtered
RGVAC articles on the website would hopefully have a much improved S/N
ratio, and with a large enough pool of moderators no one would have to
moderate more than a couple days a year.  This is a proven idea that has
already worked for other forums regardless of topics.

In any case, I'd prefer if folks who are interested by this approach would
email me privately at sozdemir  since I don't think further
discussion about this is appropriate on the vectorlist.  If there's enough
interest, we'll start a discussion in email among the interested parties.

            Steve Ozdemir
            sozdemir 

ps - By the way, when Tempest does drop to second place this year, I'll be
holding one person responsible.  CLAY (and his multipac hack)!  8^) 8^) 8^)

From sozdemir  Tue Jan  4 11:13:08 2000
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Message-ID: <D718BF02627CD3119A8200902799EACAFBF5DE >
From: "Ozdemir, Steven S, GOVMK" <sozdemir >
To: vectorlist 
Subject: RE: Eric's Basement Arcade
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:12:33 -0600 
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G'day folks,

Will 2000 be the year that the last storefront arcade closes?  For years
now, vector games have been relegated to collector's basement arcades.  In
fact, there's so few vector games out there, I'll bet that we could catalog
all of vector cabinets available to the general population in storefront
arcades and family entertainment centers.

Perhaps VAPS need a new name?  Association of Basement Collectors (ABC)??
Does anyone think that VAPS is big enough that we could split it into two
organizations with one focusing on vector games???

            Steve Ozdemir
            sozdemir 


From joe.magiera  Tue Jan  4 11:40:31 2000
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From: "Magiera, Joe (AIT)" <joe.magiera >
To: "'vectorlist '" <vectorlist >
Subject: re: separate vector list?
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:40:17 -0500 
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> Does anyone think that VAPS is big enough that we could split 
> it into two organizations with one focusing on vector games???

No, no, definitely not.  After enduring the pains of the RGVAC/RGVAM split,
how could you suggest another split?  I'm already hurting at wanting to ask
technical questions to the talented audience here (many don't even read
RGVAC anymore), but I don't because they're for rastor games.  No more
splits please!  While I imagine there are a few, I'm guessing most
collectors don't limit themselves to vector games only.  VAPS is fine the
way it is, and the vectorlist is fine the way it is too.  Don't mess with
success.  Now if we could just find a way to get all the entires into KLOV
and get everyone to join VAPS...

Joe

joe.magiera 

From mowerman  Tue Jan  4 12:06:57 2000
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From: Kev <mowerman >
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"Magiera, Joe (AIT)" wrote:

> > Does anyone think that VAPS is big enough that we could split
> > it into two organizations with one focusing on vector games???
>
> No, no, definitely not.  After enduring the pains of the RGVAC/RGVAM split,
> how could you suggest another split?  I'm already hurting at wanting to ask
> technical questions to the talented audience here (many don't even read
> RGVAC anymore), but I don't because they're for rastor games.  No more
> splits please!

Don't forget how E-bay changed the market of games/parts in RGVAC also.

The signal to noise ratio of Sales that still proliferate in RGVAC turn many
off as does the increased juvenile post (29 of 59 post in RGVAC in my que are
FS/FA or related).

Size of the community, as more contribute & more post are available it becomes
harder to follow (hence Vectorlists).


> VAPS is fine the
> way it is, and the vectorlist is fine the way it is too.  Don't mess with
> success.  Now if we could just find a way to get all the entires into KLOV
> and get everyone to join VAPS...

KLOV I understand but what is the point of VAPS?  (Keep in mind I don't even
own a working Pac-Man machine.)
--
Kev                    Mowerman     >>REMOVE THE ? to REPLY

Looking for Pac-Man related hacks & Video Game

Coin Op Page ->  http://www.erols.com/mowerman


From clayberg  Tue Jan  4 12:36:40 2000
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Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 13:36:21 -0500
To: vectorlist 
From: Eric Clayberg <clayberg >
Subject: Re: Tempest on top as we go into the new millennium
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>A quick check of VAPS this morning showed that Tempest finished 1999, the
>decade, the century and the millennium at the top of the "top collected
>game" statistics.

In fact, if you discount the "board only" collections, Tempest is ahead by
a *wide* margin. If VAPS would add an extra field that capture multiple
hits per game per collector, I would guess that Tempest would be even more
dramatically ahead of the pack. I know of quite a few folks who have
multiple Tempests in their collection (i.e., different cab styles) and VAPS
does not capture this.

>Not surprisingly, Ms. Pacman has been hot on the heels of
>Tempest during 1998/1999.

Although ranked on the basis of dedicated cabs only, Ms.Pac isn't even
close! :-)

>Will 2000 be the year that the last storefront arcade closes?  For years
>now, vector games have been relegated to collector's basement arcades.  In
>fact, there's so few vector games out there, I'll bet that we could catalog
>all of vector cabinets available to the general population in storefront
>arcades and family entertainment centers.

It's been done to a great extent already:

	http://www.classicgaming.com/locations/index.html

Here's a list of know Tempests, for example:

	http://www.classicgaming.com/locations/Tempest.html

If you know of other locations, please submit them here:

	http://www.classicgaming.com/locations/submit.html

From raiford  Tue Jan  4 13:21:04 2000
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Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 14:20:24 -0500
To: vectorlist 
From: Jon Raiford <raiford >
Subject: Re: Tempest on top as we go into the new millennium
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Hmm..  A quick glance reveals that you have a classic arcade?  How does
that work exactly? (how well does it do is probably a better question).. No
wonder you buy so much stuff off ebay :)

Jon

At 01:36 PM 01/04/2000 -0500, you wrote:
> >A quick check of VAPS this morning showed that Tempest finished 1999, the
> >decade, the century and the millennium at the top of the "top collected
> >game" statistics.
>
>In fact, if you discount the "board only" collections, Tempest is ahead by
>a *wide* margin. If VAPS would add an extra field that capture multiple
>hits per game per collector, I would guess that Tempest would be even more
>dramatically ahead of the pack. I know of quite a few folks who have
>multiple Tempests in their collection (i.e., different cab styles) and VAPS
>does not capture this.
>
> >Not surprisingly, Ms. Pacman has been hot on the heels of
> >Tempest during 1998/1999.
>
>Although ranked on the basis of dedicated cabs only, Ms.Pac isn't even
>close! :-)
>
> >Will 2000 be the year that the last storefront arcade closes?  For years
> >now, vector games have been relegated to collector's basement arcades.  In
> >fact, there's so few vector games out there, I'll bet that we could catalog
> >all of vector cabinets available to the general population in storefront
> >arcades and family entertainment centers.
>
>It's been done to a great extent already:
>
>         http://www.classicgaming.com/locations/index.html
>
>Here's a list of know Tempests, for example:
>
>         http://www.classicgaming.com/locations/Tempest.html
>
>If you know of other locations, please submit them here:
>
>         http://www.classicgaming.com/locations/submit.html

From kickman@bellsouth.net Tue Jan  4 14:21:14 2000
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From: "Michael Benge" <kickman@bellsouth.net>
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(Keep in mind I don't even
> own a working Pac-Man machine.)
A true Pac-head does'nt own a complete machine.  Sigh.  If you lived closer
I would give you one.  Forward Air in atlanta has finally gone to the
crapper, so shipping is no longer an option.  :>

From clayberg  Tue Jan  4 14:22:42 2000
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Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 15:17:29 -0500
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Jon,

>A quick glance reveals that you have a classic arcade?

Yeah...in my basement. ;-)  It's open to any VAPS, RGVAC or Vectorlist
person who wants to visit (and quite a few have done so).

>How does that work exactly? (how well does it do is probably a better
question).

Since everything is on free play and there is no charge to stop by, I guess
it works pretty well. ;-)

>No wonder you buy so much stuff off ebay :)

Interestingly enough, only about 1/3 of my machines came from eBay. The
rest came from local operators, warehouses, coin-op auctions and
RGVAC/VAPS/Vectorlist folks.
-Eric

VAPS: http://www.vaps.org/members/ma/clayberg .html
Arcade: http://www.smalltalksystems.com/clayberg/arcade/arcade.htm

From Robot2084  Tue Jan  4 16:27:25 2000
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<< 
 KLOV I understand but what is the point of VAPS?  (Keep in mind I don't even
 own a working Pac-Man machine.) >>

It is a who's who and a brag sheet, basically.  Couple problems I see with 
VAPS.... 1)the format.. (as Eric said) with board collectors skewing the 
numbers quite a bit with top collected game and what not.  2) The guy that 
runs it...Ruddy?  Or something like that.  Who even knows who this guy is?  
He's someone that is definitely not active on the newsgroup and the 
day-to-day happenings on the net with arcade collecting issues.  3) Bizzare 
categories like "Knowledge" that you are supposed to fill out about games you 
own.  Does this make sense to anyone as a category?  And who cares how much 
knowledge someone has?  This directly relates to #2 I would guess.  

So, VAPS has evolved into a Brag Sheet as far as I can see.  Also, in the old 
days you used to be able to see the number collected of any particular game 
(not just the leading ones).  That used to be something kinda neat when 
looking at oddball games like Pooyan and whatnot.

I think some sort of a "Vector Preservation Group" or something might be 
kinda cool, actually.  If done right....by the right people...

JWC                                                                             
                            

From mypearl@dds.nl Tue Jan  4 17:22:16 2000
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From: Tek <mypearl@dds.nl>
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Speaking of S/N ratio and Clay, I really think it is a SHAME that a vector guru
like Clay decided to leave because he was beaten on for offering a very nice
deal we all could profit from.

I really think the CRT-charge thread (which WAS interesting, however), has done
more bad to the S/N than this one message of Clay. CRT-charges are not more
Vector related than soldering stations I think... but hey are both applicable
and thus more or less appropriate.

I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but I really disapprove with this
happening, and especially when reading a prelude to this group it comes to
mind...

Cya !

"Ozdemir, Steven S, GOVMK" wrote:
> 
> ps - By the way, when Tempest does drop to second place this year, I'll be
> holding one person responsible.  CLAY (and his multipac hack)!  8^) 8^) 8^)

From mypearl@dds.nl Tue Jan  4 17:25:03 2000
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From: Tek <mypearl@dds.nl>
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Ehm, maybe I am missing out, but I have visited their site once. I did not see
anything interesting there but the name of fellow-collectors throught the world.
Am I missing something or what? (I am NOT being sarcastic here :) )

Cy a!

"Magiera, Joe (AIT)" wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone think that VAPS is big enough that we could split
> > it into two organizations with one focusing on vector games???
> 
> No, no, definitely not.  After enduring the pains of the RGVAC/RGVAM split,
> how could you suggest another split?  I'm already hurting at wanting to ask
> technical questions to the talented audience here (many don't even read
> RGVAC anymore), but I don't because they're for rastor games.  No more
> splits please!  While I imagine there are a few, I'm guessing most
> collectors don't limit themselves to vector games only.  VAPS is fine the
> way it is, and the vectorlist is fine the way it is too.  Don't mess with
> success.  Now if we could just find a way to get all the entires into KLOV
> and get everyone to join VAPS...
> 
> Joe
> 
> joe.magiera 

From mypearl@dds.nl Tue Jan  4 17:28:12 2000
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Kev wrote:
> 
> "Magiera, Joe (AIT)" wrote:

> Don't forget how E-bay changed the market of games/parts in RGVAC also.
> 
> The signal to noise ratio of Sales that still proliferate in RGVAC turn many
> off as does the increased juvenile post (29 of 59 post in RGVAC in my que are
> FS/FA or related).

I kust read it throug a FA/WTB/BUT/TRACE/FS filter, and it does it job very
well. But the level of the other subjects left rarely exceeds the level of
replacing some fuses... :(  

> KLOV I understand but what is the point of VAPS?  (Keep in mind I don't even
> own a working Pac-Man machine.)

Same question here...

Cya !

From mowerman  Tue Jan  4 18:00:13 2000
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Michael Benge wrote:

> (Keep in mind I don't even
> > own a working Pac-Man machine.)
> A true Pac-head does'nt own a complete machine.  Sigh.  If you lived closer
> I would give you one.  Forward Air in atlanta has finally gone to the
> crapper, so shipping is no longer an option.

It is more like the old saying about the cobbler's children going barefoot.

VAPS does have a valid use, to look up other owners who may be knowledgable
enough to help you, as Joe pointed out.
--
Kev                    Mowerman     >>REMOVE THE ? to REPLY

Looking for Pac-Man related hacks & Video Game

Coin Op Page ->  http://www.erols.com/mowerman


From matt  Tue Jan  4 18:24:20 2000
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Subject: Re: Tempest on top as we go into the new millennium
In-Reply-To: <3872805F.8589039C@dds.nl>
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Status: O

I got an email from Clay a couple days ago and he doesn't seem to be all
that disgruntled.  I think with the holidays and all he just hasn't
bothered to resubscribe yet.

Since he's been backordered on parts for his multigame kits he's taken
some of his orderforms off the website until he catches up.  So - I don't
think he's given up on vector games.

Ya gotta admit, as a game collector - it's pretty cool to order a very
affordable kit which allows you to play so many variations of games on one
piece of hardware.  Not sure why Clay gets a bad rap every so often.


Matt


_____________________________________________________________________

On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Tek wrote:

> Speaking of S/N ratio and Clay, I really think it is a SHAME that a vector guru
> like Clay decided to leave because he was beaten on for offering a very nice
> deal we all could profit from.
> 
> I really think the CRT-charge thread (which WAS interesting, however), has done
> more bad to the S/N than this one message of Clay. CRT-charges are not more
> Vector related than soldering stations I think... but hey are both applicable
> and thus more or less appropriate.
> 
> I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but I really disapprove with this
> happening, and especially when reading a prelude to this group it comes to
> mind...
> 
> Cya !
> 
> "Ozdemir, Steven S, GOVMK" wrote:
> > 
> > ps - By the way, when Tempest does drop to second place this year, I'll be
> > holding one person responsible.  CLAY (and his multipac hack)!  8^) 8^) 8^)
> 
> 

From awilson  Tue Jan  4 19:20:05 2000
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From: Andrew Wilson <awilson >
To: vectorlist 
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Subject: Re: Tempest on top as we go into the new millennium
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>Ya gotta admit, as a game collector - it's pretty cool to order a very
>affordable kit which allows you to play so many variations of games on one
>piece of hardware.  Not sure why Clay gets a bad rap every so often.

        *Does* Clay get a bad rap? I think Clay gets alot of (well-justified)
praise from other collectors, and I think that sits poorly with a very small
group of people who look at what he's done and say "Hell, *I* could do that.
He's not so smart. What's the big deal?" 

        In a similar vein, the whole vectorlist off-topic flap started off
smelling alot like "Hey, why does *Clay* get to post commercial stuff? Why does
*he* get special privileges?". 

        Clay's a good guy who's contributed some great stuff to the hobby.
I'd hate to see him driven out, and I'm glad to hear that he's planning on
resubscribing to the list...

                        Drew




From saint  Tue Jan  4 21:16:02 2000
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From: saint <saint >
To: vectorlist 
Subject: Re: separate vector list?
In-Reply-To: <38728106.926D73BA@dds.nl>
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Well, minor perhaps but it does help folks get in touch with one another
... Had someone notice that I was in his area and contact me for advice
(foolish him! :) ) and I was able to point him to a few good resources...

--- saint
    Build Your Own Arcade Controls FAQ
    http://www.arcadecontrols.speedhost.com


On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Tek wrote:

> Ehm, maybe I am missing out, but I have visited their site once. I did not see
> anything interesting there but the name of fellow-collectors throught the world.
> Am I missing something or what? (I am NOT being sarcastic here :) )
> 
> Cy a!
> 
> "Magiera, Joe (AIT)" wrote:
> > 
> > > Does anyone think that VAPS is big enough that we could split
> > > it into two organizations with one focusing on vector games???
> > 
> > No, no, definitely not.  After enduring the pains of the RGVAC/RGVAM split,
> > how could you suggest another split?  I'm already hurting at wanting to ask
> > technical questions to the talented audience here (many don't even read
> > RGVAC anymore), but I don't because they're for rastor games.  No more
> > splits please!  While I imagine there are a few, I'm guessing most
> > collectors don't limit themselves to vector games only.  VAPS is fine the
> > way it is, and the vectorlist is fine the way it is too.  Don't mess with
> > success.  Now if we could just find a way to get all the entires into KLOV
> > and get everyone to join VAPS...
> > 
> > Joe
> > 
> > joe.magiera 
> 
> 

From dnagle  Tue Jan  4 21:29:13 2000
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From: "Dusty Nagle" <dnagle >
To: <vectorlist >
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Subject: 'Troids, was a lot of other junk
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:42:07 -0500
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Still can get no AC voltage reading from the X output of the gameboard.  On
the Y,  I get a fluctuating 2 - 3 VAC.  Game plays fine by the sound of it
and the start buttons ( I got through the first level once without a
monitor!).  The chips in the X / Y circuitry all seem to keep approx the
same temp.  I am kinda stuck and have no scope....  :(

Please help

Dusty
'Troid-less

From raiford  Wed Jan  5 07:28:49 2000
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Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 08:22:10 -0500
To: vectorlist 
From: Jon Raiford <raiford >
Subject: Re: 'Troids, was a lot of other junk
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This is not a bad situation to have.  There is very little holding you back
at this point, so don't give up :).  Get yourself a logic probe at the shit shack
and check the inputs to the DAC on the X circuit.  You should see activity
on all input pins (pins 4 - 13).  At this point, I just swap out the TL082
(don't forget to socket it).  From what I can tell, it is usually what fails,
and its nice to know that the shit shack carries them (I picked up 2
the other day).  If this doesn't fix it, it is probably the DAC.  There was talk
in here the other day about getting replacements.

Btw, take a look at the schematics for this little circuit (page 2B).  There
isn't much to it at all.  The components that usually fail are electrolytic
capacitors, diodes, transistors, and IC's (not in that order).  Looking at
this circuit shows very few of these things to worry about (just in case
the brute force method is needed).

Jon

At 10:42 PM 01/04/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>Still can get no AC voltage reading from the X output of the gameboard.  On
>the Y,  I get a fluctuating 2 - 3 VAC.  Game plays fine by the sound of it
>and the start buttons ( I got through the first level once without a
>monitor!).  The chips in the X / Y circuitry all seem to keep approx the
>same temp.  I am kinda stuck and have no scope....  :(
>
>Please help
>
>Dusty
>'Troid-less

From joe.magiera  Wed Jan  5 08:48:39 2000
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From: "Magiera, Joe (AIT)" <joe.magiera >
To: "'vectorlist '" <vectorlist >
Subject: RE: separate vector list?
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:47:58 -0500 
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> but what is the point of VAPS?

> It is a who's who and a brag sheet, basically.  Couple 
> problems I see with VAPS.... 1)the format.. (as Eric said) with board
collectors 
> skewing the numbers quite a bit with top collected game and what not.
<snip>
>  3) Bizzare categories like "Knowledge" that you are supposed to fill out 
> about games you own.  Does this make sense to anyone as a category?  And
who 
> cares how much knowledge someone has?

I had responded to Kev privately to keep it out of the vector list, but
since a number of people have questioned it, since I brought it up, I'd like
to explain my answer.  Yes it is a brag list, but I don't see a problem with
that.  I also agree with the format problems that a few others have pointed
out.  But if used as a reference item, I think it's a great thing.  More
than once I have e-mailed directly owners of a game with a question (after
it went unaswered on RGVAC) and they have helped out (and yes I used the
"knowledge" category to help decide who to e-mail).  No one has minded the
direct e-mailing probably because it wasn't just spam, and I wasn't out
trying to buy their game.  But people being what they are, I can also see a
lot of abuse.  I'm glad I haven't heard of any (yet).

Joe

joe.magiera 

From batlzone@cyberenet.net Wed Jan  5 09:33:45 2000
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Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 11:49:39 -0500
From: Al Warner <batlzone@cyberenet.net>
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To: vectorlist 
Subject: Re: Tempest on top as we go into the new millennium
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It looks like Tempest's place is secure.  Clay no longer produces MultiPacs, and
doesn't plan to for a long time (if ever).

-Al-

"Ozdemir, Steven S, GOVMK" wrote:

>             Steve Ozdemir
>             sozdemir 
>
> ps - By the way, when Tempest does drop to second place this year, I'll be
> holding one person responsible.  CLAY (and his multipac hack)!  8^) 8^) 8^)

--
 =====================================================================
-=               Al Warner batlzone@cyberenet.net                    =-
-= Learn how to install a Cap Kit in your video game's monitor and   =-
-= see a whole lot more on my web page at:                           =-
-=               http://www.cyberenet.net/~batlzone                  =-
 =====================================================================



From batlzone@cyberenet.net Wed Jan  5 09:33:53 2000
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I'd like to ask the administrators of this list if they would consider
running a Rasterlist with the same rules and regulations.  Rather than
splitting vectorlist up, I think it would be nice to get Classic Raster
repair information as well.  Might help bring a few classic raster games
back to life from a component level.  If someone can set it up and host
it, I'll act as overseer if no one else wants to, just tell me how.  I'm
not a genius like the bulk of you guys and I know you have tons of
Raster secrets you're just dying to share with the rest of us.  The S/N
ratio and the modern junk on RGVAC keeps me from being a regular
reader.  I'm sure many of you feel the same way.  Opinions?
Suggestions? Please e-mail me direct, this message is off-topic enough
(I apologize in advance for this, but this is the right audience for
this request).

Thanks for reading,

-Al-

--
 =====================================================================
-=               Al Warner batlzone@cyberenet.net                    =-
-= Learn how to install a Cap Kit in your video game's monitor and   =-
-= see a whole lot more on my web page at:                           =-
-=               http://www.cyberenet.net/~batlzone                  =-
 =====================================================================



From sozdemir  Wed Jan  5 10:19:18 2000
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From: "Ozdemir, Steven S, GOVMK" <sozdemir >
To: vectorlist 
Subject: RE: Tempest on top as we go into the new millennium
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:18:43 -0600 
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G'day Al and folks,

Tempest's place as the VAPS's all-time top game won't be secure while vector
parts continue to become scarcer with every passing year.  A universal
vector monitor would go along way towards revitalizing collecting vector
games.  Then the new bottleneck would become the number of Tempest PCBs out
there.

I don't know if my FPGA suggestion for replacing Cinematronics PCB's would
carry over to Tempest's PCB (minus the AVG and sound sections).
Cinematronics motherboards have the advantage of a purely digital interface.

            Steve Ozdemir
            sozdemir 

ps - A translator PCB for some of the 190 Space Duel/Gravitar/Black Widow
cabinets in VAPS would go along way towards increasing the number of Tempest
(board only) owners in VAPS.  I doubt there'd be any legal problems with
this, and the translator PCB wouldn't cost that much to make.  VAPS searches
indicate about 100 of these 190 owners don't have Tempest...see you can do
market research with VAPS (without spamming the owners to gauge interest)
before you take the leap and pour money into a translator PCB project.

(I'm assuming that the translator PCB would swap the X and Y outputs so that
vertical Tempest could be played on a horizontal monitor.  Thankfully, Atari
sent XINV out to the edge connector for Tempest, so playing with it in the
translator PCB wouldn't be difficult if this is required.)

-----Original Message-----
From: Al Warner [mailto:batlzone@cyberenet.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 11:50 AM
To: vectorlist 
Subject: Re: Tempest on top as we go into the new millennium


It looks like Tempest's place is secure.  Clay no longer produces MultiPacs,
and
doesn't plan to for a long time (if ever).

-Al-

"Ozdemir, Steven S, GOVMK" wrote:

>             Steve Ozdemir
>             sozdemir 
>
> ps - By the way, when Tempest does drop to second place this year, I'll be
> holding one person responsible.  CLAY (and his multipac hack)!  8^) 8^)
8^)

--
 =====================================================================
-=               Al Warner batlzone@cyberenet.net                    =-
-= Learn how to install a Cap Kit in your video game's monitor and   =-
-= see a whole lot more on my web page at:                           =-
-=               http://www.cyberenet.net/~batlzone                  =-
 =====================================================================

From jwelser  Wed Jan  5 11:40:05 2000
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On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Tek wrote:

> Speaking of S/N ratio and Clay, I really think it is a SHAME that a vector guru
> like Clay decided to leave because he was beaten on for offering a very nice
> deal we all could profit from.
> 
> I really think the CRT-charge thread (which WAS interesting, however), has done
> more bad to the S/N than this one message of Clay. CRT-charges are not more
> Vector related than soldering stations I think... but hey are both applicable
> and thus more or less appropriate.
> 
> I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but I really disapprove with this
> happening, and especially when reading a prelude to this group it comes to
> mind...

Guys,

	Let's please keep our personal opinions of vectorlist policy in
private email to the list owners (either me or labuda .)  It's not
on topic, and, worse yet, it makes us look bad.  If you have some problem
with list policy, PLEASE let us know in email, NOT on the list.

	I have no control over who subscribes or unsubscribes.  Clay
unsubscribed of his own free will (no one drove him out, as is being
insinuated,) presumably in response to something someone else said to him
about his desoldering stations.  While I was sad to see him go (as I would
be for anyone who unsubscribed,) what can anyone do?  It was his
decision.  I think it is a SHAME that some people can't grow up and move
on.  If you have a problem with it, bug Clay, NOT the list.  The only
person responsible for Clay's unsubscribing from the list was Clay and
Clay alone.

	If you have some problem with this message, PLEASE let me know in
private email, to be considerate to others on the list.

Thanks,

Joe

From Joel_Rosenzweig  Wed Jan  5 12:10:28 2000
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I'm curious if anyone has thought of reproducing the PCBs for some of our
favorite vector games.  After debugging several catastrophic failures with
my Battlezone over the weekend, all of which were mechanical in nature (bad
sockets, bad cables, oxidized pins...) I started thinking that it would be
great to have a fresh PCB that I could populate with new components.  I
figured there were at least two options:  Reproduce the board exactly like
the original, and use the original to develop the art for the new version.
Or redo the board using modern memory components to consolidate the RAMs
into some monolithic device, and consolidate the PROMs into one larger
device, which would require a new board layout.

Battlezone and Asteroids do not have a HUGE parts count.  It seems that if
the schematic were correct, it could be entered "as-is" into one of the
routing and layout packages and it could develop a nice compact unit,
without even bothering to copy the art from an actual board.  Whatever the
plan, it would be nice to have a brand new PCB.  It just seems that in order
to preserve these games for years to come, we might need some new boards to
put components into.

I haven't calculated price for a double layer board of Asteroids size, but I
expect that in quantity, the price could be made reasonable.  I'm sure the
quantity one price is much more than the price of several working logic
boards. :-)

Any thoughts?  Interest?  Anyone already doing this?

Joel-


From joe.magiera  Wed Jan  5 12:17:22 2000
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From: "Magiera, Joe (AIT)" <joe.magiera >
To: "'vector list'" <vectorlist >
Subject: Compare Amplifone and WG?
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:17:13 -0500 
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Apparently I should know this, but I don't, so can someone please tell me
the significant differences between an Amplifone (sp?) and a WG (and
Electrohome for that matter) vector monitors?  It always sounds like the
Amplifone's are talked about as if they're the ultimate, but then reading
the discussions, I see stuff like "they can't handle the death star
explosion on Star Wars", and where the red (or was it blue) chassis stinks.
I have to admit, I saw a WG on a Star Wars with a new cap installed and
proper convergence, etc..  I can't imagine a nicer display on a monitor.  I
also have only heard about G08's installed on Sega games.  Is there some
limitation there?  Has a G08 ever been tried in a Star Wars or Quantum?  Has
an Amplifone or WG ever been put in a Star Trek?  If so, what were the
results (visual and otherwise)?  How does a WG64xx stack up against the
rest?  (As if I had one)  ;^)

Can someone please take me out of the dark on this?  Thanks,

Joe

joe.magiera 

From Paul_Labuda  Wed Jan  5 12:24:45 2000
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Fellow vectorheads,

Please note that my e-mail address has changed.  Please send any private
correspondence to me at Paul_Labuda  .

To contact Joe and me, no matter what changes our e-mail addresses might
make, send any vectorlist maintenance messages to
vectorlist-request  .  If ownership of the list changes
for any reason, the request address above will contact the current owners.
Use it for any complaining about content, questions about on-topic versus
off-topic, etc.  Essentially, if you're not sure that something should go to
the vectorlist readership, send it to vectorlist-request instead.

- Paul Labuda

-----Original Message-----
From: jwelser  [mailto:jwelser ]
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 11:40 AM
To: vectorlist 
Subject: Re: Tempest on top as we go into the new millennium


On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Tek wrote:

> Speaking of S/N ratio and Clay, I really think it is a SHAME that a vector
guru
> like Clay decided to leave because he was beaten on for offering a very
nice
> deal we all could profit from.
> 
> I really think the CRT-charge thread (which WAS interesting, however), has
done
> more bad to the S/N than this one message of Clay. CRT-charges are not
more
> Vector related than soldering stations I think... but hey are both
applicable
> and thus more or less appropriate.
> 
> I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but I really disapprove with this
> happening, and especially when reading a prelude to this group it comes to
> mind...

Guys,

	Let's please keep our personal opinions of vectorlist policy in
private email to the list owners (either me or labuda .)  It's not
on topic, and, worse yet, it makes us look bad.  If you have some problem
with list policy, PLEASE let us know in email, NOT on the list.

	I have no control over who subscribes or unsubscribes.  Clay
unsubscribed of his own free will (no one drove him out, as is being
insinuated,) presumably in response to something someone else said to him
about his desoldering stations.  While I was sad to see him go (as I would
be for anyone who unsubscribed,) what can anyone do?  It was his
decision.  I think it is a SHAME that some people can't grow up and move
on.  If you have a problem with it, bug Clay, NOT the list.  The only
person responsible for Clay's unsubscribing from the list was Clay and
Clay alone.

	If you have some problem with this message, PLEASE let me know in
private email, to be considerate to others on the list.

Thanks,

Joe

From Joel_Rosenzweig  Wed Jan  5 12:45:14 2000
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From: "Joel Rosenzweig" <Joel_Rosenzweig >
To: <vectorlist >
Subject: Re: Compare Amplifone and WG?
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:46:26 -0500
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I'll provide a few details, others can fill in the rest.

The Ampliphone monitor uses a higher resolution tube than the WG.  The dot
pitch is finer.  As a result, an Ampliphone display looks spectacular
compared with the WG because the vectors are so crisp and thin.  By
comparison, the vectors on a WG look less sharply focussed.  Though, it's
more than that, because it's not a focus issue.  It's sort of like the
difference between a VGA display and a CGA display (though, not as big a
difference between the two vector monitors.) Let's say that after putting an
Ampliphone into my Tempest as a test one afternoon, I was awestruck, and I
wanted to put Ampliphones into all my vector games.

The deflection boards / low voltage power supplies of the Ampliphone are
presumably more reliable than the original equipment WG.  The WG low voltage
supplies used to suffer failures with great frequency (at least in my own
collection and experience) until the LV2000 came out. :-)

Anyway, those are the details I have learned first hand.  BTW, before I
owned an Ampliphone, I had a WG in my Star Wars machine.  I was absolutely
BLOWN away when I swapped an Ampliphone in there.  You really need to see
one to understand.

Joel-


-----Original Message-----
From: Magiera, Joe (AIT) <joe.magiera >
To: 'vector list' <vectorlist >
Date: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 1:19 PM
Subject: Compare Amplifone and WG?


>Apparently I should know this, but I don't, so can someone please tell me
>the significant differences between an Amplifone (sp?) and a WG (and
>Electrohome for that matter) vector monitors?  It always sounds like the
>Amplifone's are talked about as if they're the ultimate, but then reading
>the discussions, I see stuff like "they can't handle the death star
>explosion on Star Wars", and where the red (or was it blue) chassis stinks.
>I have to admit, I saw a WG on a Star Wars with a new cap installed and
>proper convergence, etc..  I can't imagine a nicer display on a monitor.  I
>also have only heard about G08's installed on Sega games.  Is there some
>limitation there?  Has a G08 ever been tried in a Star Wars or Quantum?
Has
>an Amplifone or WG ever been put in a Star Trek?  If so, what were the
>results (visual and otherwise)?  How does a WG64xx stack up against the
>rest?  (As if I had one)  ;^)
>
>Can someone please take me out of the dark on this?  Thanks,
>
>Joe
>
>joe.magiera 
>
>

From jenison  Wed Jan  5 12:45:58 2000
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I'll give it a shot...

On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Magiera, Joe (AIT) wrote:

> Apparently I should know this, but I don't, so can someone please tell me
> the significant differences between an Amplifone (sp?) and a WG (and
> Electrohome for that matter) vector monitors?  It always sounds like the
> Amplifone's are talked about as if they're the ultimate, but then reading
> the discussions, I see stuff like "they can't handle the death star
> explosion on Star Wars", and where the red (or was it blue) chassis stinks.
> I have to admit, I saw a WG on a Star Wars with a new cap installed and
> proper convergence, etc..  I can't imagine a nicer display on a monitor.  I
> also have only heard about G08's installed on Sega games.  Is there some
> limitation there?  Has a G08 ever been tried in a Star Wars or Quantum?  Has
> an Amplifone or WG ever been put in a Star Trek?  If so, what were the
> results (visual and otherwise)?  How does a WG64xx stack up against the
> rest?  (As if I had one)  ;^)
> 
> Can someone please take me out of the dark on this?  Thanks,

The Amplifone tube has a higher resolution, thus the vectors look sharper.

The WG XYs and the G08 both use the same tube, thus the same resolution.

In a Star Wars, an Amplifone is prefered because it appears Star Wars was
designed with the bowing of the Amplifone in mind; with Star Wars on a WG,
you will see that the sides of the display bow in (best seen in test
mode).

The G08 is (I believe) considered the "fastest" vector monitor (something
to do with the slew rate).  If you put a WG XY in a G08 game, it will not
be able to keep up in some situations, and thus cause distortion.  

I would think that a G08 would easily be able to handle Atari Vector games
(if range correction was taken into account), but I would be curious to
see how a G08 would hold up to the Death Star Explosion.

I don't know anything about the WG64xx.

So to sum it up, Amplifone is the prettiest, G08 is a workhorse, and the
WG is a good general purpose vector monitor.

Any comments or correction to the above are welcome, but this is my
current perception of the color vector monitors.

Mark Jenison


From jess  Wed Jan  5 12:52:12 2000
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From what I read and have seen between my WG's and Amplifones...

The Amplifone has a better deflection circuit, it is faster (slew rate?)
and more linear (plus it almost never breaks). The picture on a fine tuned
amplifone monitor looks *nice*, bright, crisp, square. Problem is that the 
HV section sucks.

WG's, are a bit less linear and the deflection/LV supply is prone to breaking
a lot. With Jeff/Anders fix, half of the problems can be eliminated. From
my experience, if you remote mount the deflection transistors on nice big 
heatsinks with a fan, they last forever (almost ;-)
  WG's are harder to work on as well, everything jammed into the chassis.

jess

"Magiera, Joe (AIT)" wrote:
> 
> Apparently I should know this, but I don't, so can someone please tell me
> the significant differences between an Amplifone (sp?) and a WG (and
> Electrohome for that matter) vector monitors?  It always sounds like the
> Amplifone's are talked about as if they're the ultimate, but then reading
> the discussions, I see stuff like "they can't handle the death star
> explosion on Star Wars", and where the red (or was it blue) chassis stinks.
> I have to admit, I saw a WG on a Star Wars with a new cap installed and
> proper convergence, etc..  I can't imagine a nicer display on a monitor.  I
> also have only heard about G08's installed on Sega games.  Is there some
> limitation there?  Has a G08 ever been tried in a Star Wars or Quantum?  Has
> an Amplifone or WG ever been put in a Star Trek?  If so, what were the
> results (visual and otherwise)?  How does a WG64xx stack up against the
> rest?  (As if I had one)  ;^)
> 
> Can someone please take me out of the dark on this?  Thanks,
> 
> Joe
> 
> joe.magiera 

From mypearl@dds.nl Wed Jan  5 12:57:43 2000
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Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 19:56:25 +0100
From: Tek <mypearl@dds.nl>
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I am afraid it is going to be very hard, if not impossible at all, to trace back
until you find the fault.
At this stage, you can only *suspect* the Y output. a scope can give you exact
detail about what is really happening at the output (plain dead or very weak
ect). You might find this out by turning up the brightness of your monitor just
enough to see some picture.

If it is really dead, the problem is probably quite easy to find with an scope
by tracing back all the way to the AM6012 DAC. My first guess would be one of
the opamps or the analog multiplier (if they are on your board). At last, I
would suspect the DAC.

The VERY last thing that could cause this would be the buffers/counter which
provide the data for the DAC. Anything else in the digital domain would be more
likely to generate other problems, like a distorted picture.

If you really cannot get a scope, just replace the opamps and if that don't fix
the problem replace the multipliers (if there).

Use sockets while you're at it!

Hope this helps a bit...

Dusty Nagle wrote:
> 
> Still can get no AC voltage reading from the X output of the gameboard.  On
> the Y,  I get a fluctuating 2 - 3 VAC.  Game plays fine by the sound of it
> and the start buttons ( I got through the first level once without a
> monitor!).  The chips in the X / Y circuitry all seem to keep approx the
> same temp.  I am kinda stuck and have no scope....  :(
> 
> Please help
> 
> Dusty
> 'Troid-less

From sozdemir  Wed Jan  5 12:58:07 2000
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Message-ID: <D718BF02627CD3119A8200902799EACA01030FD5 >
From: "Ozdemir, Steven S, GOVMK" <sozdemir >
To: vectorlist 
Subject: RE: Rebuilding the PCB for a vector game
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:57:21 -0600 
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G'day folks,

As I've said before, the closest I've gotten to remanufacturing PCB's is an
attempt to squish the Cinematronics motherboard (composed of solely 7400
series IC's and digital interfaces) into an FPGA with alot of I/O pins.  As
you've said below, I might put add a large EPROM and modern RAM to the
design.

With FPGA's, you get the feeling that "software concepts" of registers,
flops and gate arrays are replacing what use to be hardware ICs.  My hope
would be that these concepts would still be supported five years from now.
If we replace old hardware with modern hardware, I fear that five years from
now we'd be back to replacing discontinued parts and laying out the board on
new PCBs again (instead of on a schematic capture program).

            Steve Ozdemir
            sozdemir 

ps - To be fair, development on a FPGA has its own set of problems.  If
propogation of signals across the FPGA is not fast enough, then you have to
resort to simulation and redesign accordingly.  Also, as software packages
are upgraded, you have to repeatedly import your design (and possibly run
simulations again in the worst case).  So I guess just like with hardware,
there's a certain amount of maintanence that has to be performed.

-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Rosenzweig [mailto:Joel_Rosenzweig ]
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 1:12 PM
To: vectorlist 
Subject: Rebuilding the PCB for a vector game


I'm curious if anyone has thought of reproducing the PCBs for some of our
favorite vector games.  After debugging several catastrophic failures with
my Battlezone over the weekend, all of which were mechanical in nature (bad
sockets, bad cables, oxidized pins...) I started thinking that it would be
great to have a fresh PCB that I could populate with new components.  I
figured there were at least two options:  Reproduce the board exactly like
the original, and use the original to develop the art for the new version.
Or redo the board using modern memory components to consolidate the RAMs
into some monolithic device, and consolidate the PROMs into one larger
device, which would require a new board layout.

Battlezone and Asteroids do not have a HUGE parts count.  It seems that if
the schematic were correct, it could be entered "as-is" into one of the
routing and layout packages and it could develop a nice compact unit,
without even bothering to copy the art from an actual board.  Whatever the
plan, it would be nice to have a brand new PCB.  It just seems that in order
to preserve these games for years to come, we might need some new boards to
put components into.

I haven't calculated price for a double layer board of Asteroids size, but I
expect that in quantity, the price could be made reasonable.  I'm sure the
quantity one price is much more than the price of several working logic
boards. :-)

Any thoughts?  Interest?  Anyone already doing this?

Joel-

From joe.magiera  Wed Jan  5 13:01:27 2000
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From: "Magiera, Joe (AIT)" <joe.magiera >
To: "'vectorlist '" <vectorlist >
Subject: RE: Compare Amplifone and WG?
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:01:19 -0500 
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> BTW, before I
> owned an Ampliphone, I had a WG in my Star Wars machine.  I 
> was absolutely
> BLOWN away when I swapped an Ampliphone in there.  You really 
> need to see
> one to understand.

Not trying to be difficult here, but I'm sure I read someone on the
vectorlist say (within the past month) that the Ampliphone's can't handle
the death star explosion.  And I read where someone else said that their
Ampliphone lasted like 3 games in Star Wars.  What gives?  Also, what about
the blue and red chassis stuff?

Joe

From dfish  Wed Jan  5 13:13:43 2000
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From: "Fish, David" <dfish >
To: "'vectorlist '" <vectorlist >
Subject: RE: Compare Amplifone and WG?
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:13:49 -0500 
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OK, my turn.

>Mark J. wrote:
> The Amplifone tube has a higher resolution, thus the vectors 
> look sharper.
> 

This is true most of the time but not always. There are early
model Amplifone monitors that are low res. Unfortunately, I have
one.

<snip>
 
> The G08 is (I believe) considered the "fastest" vector 
> monitor (something
> to do with the slew rate).  If you put a WG XY in a G08 game, 
> it will not
> be able to keep up in some situations, and thus cause distortion.  
> 
<snip>
> I don't know anything about the WG64xx.
> 

I've compared the performance of the WG 19K6401 and the Electrohome G08
monitors when I was getting Al K's Top Gunner 2 board running. The G08
worked fine with my Sega stuff but when it was run by the TG board there
were stray and bent vectors all over the place. It couldn't keep up with
the drive signals. The 6401, on the other hand, displayed everything
fine. I'm also fairly sure that the WG uses a medium res tube (19VNJP22).
I don't have any specs for it but it had the 'crispness' of a medium
resolution Amplifone.

> So to sum it up, Amplifone is the prettiest, G08 is a 
> workhorse, and the
> WG is a good general purpose vector monitor.
> 

I'd have to rate them in this order:
#1 WG 19K6401
#2 Amplifone (MED res)
#3 Electrohome G08
#4 Amplifone (LOW res)
#4 WG 19K6101

David Fish                         "We want...Information. INFORMATION
Melrose, MA  USA                          You won't get it!
   fishd@tiac.net                   By hook or by crook we will"
   dfish                             _The Prisoner_

From raiford  Wed Jan  5 13:27:18 2000
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Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 14:26:36 -0500
To: vectorlist 
From: Jon Raiford <raiford >
Subject: RE: Compare Amplifone and WG?
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You should probably check out the Amplifone FAQ.  What you are referring to is
the "Dead Red" or "Trashifone" Flyback.  The HV transformers were destined to
failure because of a certain person who is now CEO of Ben & Jerry's.  After you
replace the crap transformer, the monitors are rock solid (so I hear).

Jon

At 02:01 PM 01/05/2000 -0500, you wrote:
> > BTW, before I
> > owned an Ampliphone, I had a WG in my Star Wars machine.  I 
> > was absolutely
> > BLOWN away when I swapped an Ampliphone in there.  You really 
> > need to see
> > one to understand.
>
>Not trying to be difficult here, but I'm sure I read someone on the
>vectorlist say (within the past month) that the Ampliphone's can't handle
>the death star explosion.  And I read where someone else said that their
>Ampliphone lasted like 3 games in Star Wars.  What gives?  Also, what about
>the blue and red chassis stuff?
>
>Joe

From nej2001  Wed Jan  5 13:28:07 2000
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From: Noel Johnson <nej2001 >
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Subject: RE: Compare Amplifone and WG?
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> Not trying to be difficult here, but I'm sure I read
> someone on the
> vectorlist say (within the past month) that the
> Ampliphone's can't handle
> the death star explosion.  And I read where someone
> else said that their
> Ampliphone lasted like 3 games in Star Wars.  What
> gives?  Also, what about
> the blue and red chassis stuff?
> 
> Joe

You may be referring to my posts awhile back about a
blue HV PCB with an original red flyback on it.  I
hadn't installed a cap kit yet and was asking about
the "blooming" that I noticed during the deathstar
explosion.  According to Michael Kelley and a few
others, it was not recommended to use and original
blue (ie, first revision) HV PCB with a red flyback in
Star Wars.  This combo was still deemed suitable for a
Quantum because that game did not stress the monitor
as much.  However, if a replacement flyback is used
(on a blue, green, or beige colored PCB) such as a
Wintron or Penn Tran (forerunner to Wintron), then no
reliability problems should be encountered during
deathstar explosion.  (It's a good idea to cap/upgrade
the HV's in accordance with MK's article on
Gamearchive)  I am using a Penn Tran on a green PCB in
my SW upright now and the picture is simply gorgeous!!
:-) 

Noel


__________________________________________________
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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From zonn  Wed Jan  5 13:33:12 2000
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From: Zonn <zonn >
To: vectorlist 
Subject: Re: Rebuilding the PCB for a vector game
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 11:37:57 -0800
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On Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:57:21 -0600 , you wrote:

>G'day folks,
>
>As I've said before, the closest I've gotten to remanufacturing PCB's is an
>attempt to squish the Cinematronics motherboard (composed of solely 7400
>series IC's and digital interfaces) into an FPGA with alot of I/O pins.  As
>you've said below, I might put add a large EPROM and modern RAM to the
>design.
>
>With FPGA's, you get the feeling that "software concepts" of registers,
>flops and gate arrays are replacing what use to be hardware ICs.  My hope
>would be that these concepts would still be supported five years from now.
>If we replace old hardware with modern hardware, I fear that five years from
>now we'd be back to replacing discontinued parts and laying out the board on
>new PCBs again (instead of on a schematic capture program).

Given a 586 PC-clone with the proper number of parallel cards for driving the
monitor and sound cards, you could run emulation software that would be
indistinguishable from the real hardware.

As long as the parallel outputs are all timed the same as the original
hardware, neither the display nor the sound board would know it's being driven
by anything other than the original hardware.  And neither would the player.

Realize I'm talking about driving a real Cinematronics monitor and sound card,
this is not a *MAME* type of thing...

This would also allow new games to be written in the native processor (a 586
in this case), allowing for much more processing power.  And for the
possibility of running other hardware emulators (Asteroids for example.)

-Zonn

From Brendan.Keith  Wed Jan  5 13:44:17 2000
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From: "Keith, Brendan" <Brendan.Keith >
To: "'vectorlist '" <vectorlist >
Subject: RE: Rebuilding the PCB for a vector game
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> ----------
> From: 	Zonn[SMTP:zonn ]
> 
> On Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:57:21 -0600 , you wrote:
> 
> Given a 586 PC-clone with the proper number of parallel cards for driving
> the
> monitor and sound cards, you could run emulation software that would be
> indistinguishable from the real hardware.
> 
> Realize I'm talking about driving a real Cinematronics monitor and sound
> card,
> this is not a *MAME* type of thing...
> 
> -Zonn
> 
I'm waiting.

Brendan Keith
brendan.keith 


From sozdemir  Wed Jan  5 13:46:03 2000
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From: "Ozdemir, Steven S, GOVMK" <sozdemir >
To: vectorlist 
Subject: RE: Rebuilding the PCB for a vector game
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:45:18 -0600 
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G'day Zonn and all,

Originally, my FPGA project was intended to create a cheap drop-in
replacement part for the Cinematronics motherboard.  Using a 586 to emulate
the motherboard is also a viable option now that computer prices have been
dropping in the last few years.

In fact, I'd say that using the 586 is a better general solution to my FPGA
since it'll require less maintanence over the years as computer systems
evolve.  Now the parallel cards might be hard to fix/replace five years from
now, but that's more of an interface issue.

            Steve Ozdemir
            sozdemir 



-----Original Message-----
From: Zonn [mailto:zonn ]
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 2:38 PM
To: vectorlist 
Subject: Re: Rebuilding the PCB for a vector game


On Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:57:21 -0600 , you wrote:

>G'day folks,
>
>As I've said before, the closest I've gotten to remanufacturing PCB's is an
>attempt to squish the Cinematronics motherboard (composed of solely 7400
>series IC's and digital interfaces) into an FPGA with alot of I/O pins.  As
>you've said below, I might put add a large EPROM and modern RAM to the
>design.
>
>With FPGA's, you get the feeling that "software concepts" of registers,
>flops and gate arrays are replacing what use to be hardware ICs.  My hope
>would be that these concepts would still be supported five years from now.
>If we replace old hardware with modern hardware, I fear that five years
from
>now we'd be back to replacing discontinued parts and laying out the board
on
>new PCBs again (instead of on a schematic capture program).

Given a 586 PC-clone with the proper number of parallel cards for driving
the
monitor and sound cards, you could run emulation software that would be
indistinguishable from the real hardware.

As long as the parallel outputs are all timed the same as the original
hardware, neither the display nor the sound board would know it's being
driven
by anything other than the original hardware.  And neither would the player.

Realize I'm talking about driving a real Cinematronics monitor and sound
card,
this is not a *MAME* type of thing...

This would also allow new games to be written in the native processor (a 586
in this case), allowing for much more processing power.  And for the
possibility of running other hardware emulators (Asteroids for example.)

-Zonn

From zonn  Wed Jan  5 14:13:00 2000
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From: Zonn <zonn >
To: vectorlist 
Subject: Re: Rebuilding the PCB for a vector game
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 12:17:53 -0800
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On Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:45:18 -0600 , you wrote:

>G'day Zonn and all,
>
>Originally, my FPGA project was intended to create a cheap drop-in
>replacement part for the Cinematronics motherboard.  Using a 586 to emulate
>the motherboard is also a viable option now that computer prices have been
>dropping in the last few years.
>
>In fact, I'd say that using the 586 is a better general solution to my FPGA
>since it'll require less maintanence over the years as computer systems
>evolve.  Now the parallel cards might be hard to fix/replace five years from
>now, but that's more of an interface issue.

By parallel card, I meant printer ports.  Most of the new boards have one
built in, you must then buy one of the "Add two parallel port" cards.

The only "real" problem I foresee in this is the timing for the Cinematronics
monitor.  That may take a satellite processor (like an AVR) to handle the
timing with the resolution needed.  The timing resolution of the PC clones
probably does not allow for the accurate pulses needed for the line drawing
hardware.  Even doing timing in a hard coded timing loops is screwed up by the
586 internal caches.

This is one of the projects I'd like to try as soon as I find a house with a
*big* garage to move into.

-Zonn

From MKDUD  Wed Jan  5 16:50:59 2000
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Subject: Re: Compare Amplifone and WG?
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In a message dated 1/5/00 1:25:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
joe.magiera  writes:

<< I see stuff like "they can't handle the death star
 explosion on Star Wars", and where the red (or was it blue) chassis stinks.
 I have to admit, I saw a WG on a Star Wars with a new cap installed and
 proper convergence, etc..  I can't imagine a nicer display on a monitor. >>

Wai