From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu May 1 00:09:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 1 May 1997 00:09:18 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 00:23:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Dangerwil Message-ID: <970501002139_369118438 > To: vectorlist Subject: Re: sound boards Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist All, I have been following your progress on the Sega multi game board and I am very impressed. I don't even have the time to think about a project like this and you sound almost done. I believe you had a little extra room; How about a vector version of Astro Blaster? Might be a little tought to recode, but would probably look good in vector color. Good luck, keep up the great work! Peace Bill From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu May 1 11:05:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 1 May 1997 11:04:51 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:04:47 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: zektor.uue Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist The file that went out this morning appears to be a tar format archive. I've unpacked it, converted it to .zip, and put it on ftp.tant.com in /incoming. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu May 1 15:46:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 1 May 1997 15:46:28 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:46:25 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: eliminator sound board registers Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist I had forgotten that Rick made a copy of the 4 player Eliminator manual for me last year, so I went back and added the register definitions for Eliminator's sound board to the Sega hardware description at www.spies.com/arcade/simulation/gameHardware/SegaVectorHardware rather than send out the whole document again, here is the register description Eliminator Sound Board ---------------------- inputs 3c-3f d0 speech ready outputs 3e (076) d7 torpedo 2 d6 torpedo 1 d5 bounce d4 explosion 3 d3 explosion 2 d2 explosion 1 d1 fireball d0 not used d7 torpedo 2 d6 torpedo 1 d5 bounce d4 explosion 3 d3 explosion 2 d2 explosion 1 d1 fireball d0 - 3f (077) d7 background msb d6 background lsb d5 enemy ship d4 skitter d3 thrust msb d2 thrust lsb d1 thrust hi d0 thrust lo From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu May 1 17:18:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 1 May 1997 17:18:39 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 17:20:13 -0800 To: vectorlist From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Universal Sound Board? Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Zonn writes: >You know I didn't want to say anything, because people seem to have their >heart on the single DSP approach, but now that you've mention PIC... > >I was thinking a neat approach would be to use a PIC processor for every >analog sound or two. The 16x6x series has a built in PCM output that with a >capacitor used for filtering, you can get up to 10 bits of resolution. That >would be 4 8bit sound samples (emulations?) with no loss. 8 bit samples >should be able to match the signal to noise ratio of the original sound >cards. They didn't use a lot of dynamic range, and those amplifiers were >not "low noise". I kicked this around a couple times too, but it came down to the fact that the PICs are great as long as you're doing stuff that will fit in the internal ROM. However, as soon as you get in a situation where you want to get at more memory all your nice PIC I/O gets sucked up trying to be an address and data bus. :-( As long as the waveforms are pretty simple (well, anything that could be a *small* table or some easy algorithmically generated thing like a square wave or pulse or triangle or something) the PIC could handle it OK, but the PICs lack any real worthwhile addressing modes for table lookups, and the internal memory is a little skimpy for any sort of real "samples". However, I bet some pretty convincing approximations of the sounds could be made. Do any of you have some .WAV or .AIFF sound files of what the Eliminator and Space Fury sounds are like? One thing the PIC does have on it's side is a a BUNCH of cycles per second. So a summation of four synthesized 8 bit voices would probably be doable. The state machine might get a little screwy to write in the PIC architecture though. Hmmmm. We could also do this-- digitize all the sound effects we want. Put all of them into a big EPROM and run the outputs of the EPROM to a simple little R2R output ladder. (A cheapo D/A). Then, send the output of the D/A to a mux than can be switched to N (8?) sample/hold caps. Have the PIC watch the sound "trigger" registers for what needs to be played. The PIC then runs the address lines of the EPROM, and the selector lines of the analog mux and uses the internal RAM to keep track of what sample is being played and the current "address pointer" for each sample. >I'd ask you (Clay) to be my running mate, but I'm sure we'd get in a fight >over some nit picky thing and end up splitting the PIC party...and those >damned "Intel Segment Heads" would win again! ;^) *heh* Yeah, that sounds about right. :-) >Well uh, I'd hate to state the obvious, but if your talking those old shift >register based noise generators, then this sounds like another job for the >PIC! (Fanfare please!) Hmmm. I was thinking of those little 3 wire guys that Radio Shack used to sell. I think they were genuine white noise sources. (I don't know if the XOR method would really give you "white" or not, I'd suspect it would be pink noise of some variation...) It looks like the universal sound boards have 'em on them... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu May 1 18:34:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 1 May 1997 18:34:39 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 1 May 97 18:33 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970501182303.227fa044@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist From: Zonn Subject: Re: Universal Sound Board? Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist At 05:20 PM 5/1/97 -0800, you wrote: >Zonn writes: >>I was thinking a neat approach would be to use a PIC processor for every >>analog sound or two. The 16x6x series has a built in PCM output that with a >>capacitor used for filtering, you can get up to 10 bits of resolution. That >>would be 4 8bit sound samples (emulations?) with no loss. 8 bit samples >>should be able to match the signal to noise ratio of the original sound >>cards. They didn't use a lot of dynamic range, and those amplifiers were >>not "low noise". > >I kicked this around a couple times too, but it came down to the fact that >the PICs are great as long as you're doing stuff that will fit in the >internal ROM. However, as soon as you get in a situation where you want to >get at more memory all your nice PIC I/O gets sucked up trying to be an >address and data bus. :-( > >As long as the waveforms are pretty simple (well, anything that could be a >*small* table or some easy algorithmically generated thing like a square >wave or pulse or triangle or something) the PIC could handle it OK, but the >PICs lack any real worthwhile addressing modes for table lookups, and the >internal memory is a little skimpy for any sort of real "samples". > >However, I bet some pretty convincing approximations of the sounds could be >made. Do any of you have some .WAV or .AIFF sound files of what the >Eliminator and Space Fury sounds are like? > >One thing the PIC does have on it's side is a a BUNCH of cycles per second. >So a summation of four synthesized 8 bit voices would probably be doable. >The state machine might get a little screwy to write in the PIC >architecture though. Hmmmm. When trying to come up with ideas for a Cinematronics Universal Sound card I ran into the same problem. There's really no room to place samples in the memory of a PIC, and even if you could the Harvard architecture makes it difficult to access them... > >We could also do this-- digitize all the sound effects we want. Put all of >them into a big EPROM and run the outputs of the EPROM to a simple little >R2R output ladder. (A cheapo D/A). Then, send the output of the D/A to a >mux than can be switched to N (8?) sample/hold caps. Have the PIC watch >the sound "trigger" registers for what needs to be played. The PIC then >runs the address lines of the EPROM, and the selector lines of the analog >mux and uses the internal RAM to keep track of what sample is being played >and the current "address pointer" for each sample. But I hated to give up the "cheapness" of the PWM output of the PIC in exchange for an external D/A and all the muxing involved, so I thought another possibility would still be to use the PIC as the output device, controlled by a master CPU. The PIC could either look at a parallel port, and when I receives the data adjust it's PWM counter's accordingly. Or it could use one of those dedicated serial ports (data/clock) which can be run *really* fast, as it's input. Since the PIC doesn't have to convert serial to parallel in software, this can be just as fast. Either method would allow the PICs to be nothing but dedicated D/A's with the possibility of 4 channels per PIC and very little external hardware. I also tossed around another idea that allowed the PIC to remain fully in control of the sounds... If you use one of the 33 I/O (40 pin) PICs, you can dedicate 8 lines to inputs, and the rest (minus the PWM, and sound trigger lines) to outputs. You can then connect the PICs outputs to the address lines of an external EPROM, and the PICs inputs to the EPROMs data lines. This allows for a *very* tight PIC loop, you set the outputs to the EPROM address, read the EPROMs data, adjust the PWM timer, lather, rinse, repeat. This can be done faster than if the data were actually in the PIC's ROM area! A slightly more complicated loop would allow jumping between four different waves in the EPROM before adjusting the PWM register, still allowing for 4 voices per PIC. Enough time might be left over to allow for volume enveloping, though you'd probably have to give up a channel or two, but who knows when it comes to just moving some data around those PICs are FAST! A variation of this idea would be to have four loadable counters as the address pointers, with the PIC controlling the enable lines of the tri-statable counters. This way one write of the PIC could select between the four addresses of the four voices, which could then be incremented simultaneously. You could also use a smaller PIC. Each of the counters could also go to different EPROMS, in which case all the EPROM's data lines would be run in parallel and the EPROMs enable lines would be used as the data selection lines. I still might try this when I have some *spare* time (like that's ever going to happen!) >I was thinking of those little 3 wire guys that Radio Shack used to >sell. I think they were genuine white noise sources. (I don't know if the >XOR method would really give you "white" or not, I'd suspect it would be >pink noise of some variation...) It looks like the universal sound boards >have 'em on them... The ones that I bought a couple of, at Radio Shack, a while back were based on the shift register approach, they included a schematic of their guts. But that doesn't mean a thing, since most of what Radio Shack sells, they found in someone else's garbage, there is no telling what has been on the shelves of the "Shack" through the years. And it seems like I remember some noise IC based on a leaky (zener) diode. The shift registers are definitely lacking in low end noise. Just compare the rumbling explosions used in Space War where a leaky transistor was used as the noise source and the hollow tinny explosions of Star Castle, where the shift register approach was used. The Space War is much nicer. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu May 1 19:01:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 1 May 1997 19:01:14 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 19:01:11 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: PICs Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist I'm surprised that Eric Smith hasn't jumped into this yet (hey Eric, are you there??) I wonder if the person from Crystal that was going to do a universal Cine board has gotten any farther. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu May 1 19:03:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 1 May 1997 19:03:02 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 19:02:59 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: 68HC11's Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist If you'd consider an hc11 instead, I picked up a bunch of boards with the 44 pin variety of this microcontroller. And it has EErom in it to save high scores! From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu May 1 21:41:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 1 May 1997 21:41:49 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <33696FEE.1855 > Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 22:39:10 -0600 From: Jess Askey X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: 68HC11's References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Al Kossow wrote: > > If you'd consider an hc11 instead, I picked up a bunch of boards with > the 44 pin variety of this microcontroller. And it has EErom in it to > save high scores! I agree, I looked at the HC11 a few years ago for a project that I was doing. It has alot of features (like a serial port!!! Good for real time testing of new game code!! I wish I could do that for Major Havoc!) -- Jess Askey Atari Game Page:http://magenta.com/havoc ESLB\The Audio Analyst 509 S 2nd St Unit B Wanted: Atari I,Robot PCB Laramie, WY 82070 Data East Speed Buggy PCB (307)721-9001 Atari Quantum PCB From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 09:09:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 09:08:58 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 09:10:25 -0800 To: vectorlist From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Universal Sound Board? Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist >But I hated to give up the "cheapness" of the PWM output of the PIC in >exchange for an external D/A and all the muxing involved, so I thought >another possibility would still be to use the PIC as the output device, >controlled by a master CPU. Well, I'd kinda agree except that a dedicated 10bit DAC is only $1.50 and an op-amp for the voltage output stage is only $.50, so if you already have a "control" CPU you could just run the DAC directly and avoid the pics, and the control CPU could use an external EPROM... So there's a $1 8051 with support components ($1), EPROM ($depends), DAC ($1.50), TLO-82 ($.50)... Pretty cheap. The 8051 will run at about a MIP at 12MHz, which should be good for a few voics, and the waveforms could be complex from the ROM... The same could be said for an 8051 (w/out external ROM) and a pair of POKEY's... (grand total about $3 in parts...) :-) >The PIC could either look at a parallel port, and when I receives the data >adjust it's PWM counter's accordingly. Or it could use one of those >dedicated serial ports (data/clock) which can be run *really* fast, as it's >input. Since the PIC doesn't have to convert serial to parallel in >software, this can be just as fast. Either method would allow the PICs to >be nothing but dedicated D/A's with the possibility of 4 channels per PIC >and very little external hardware. Or if you're going to use serial anyway, just use a single PIC and one of those Max528's. About $7 with serial input and 8 voltage output 8 bit D/A's in one package... >If you use one of the 33 I/O (40 pin) PICs, you can dedicate 8 lines to >inputs, and the rest (minus the PWM, and sound trigger lines) to outputs. >You can then connect the PICs outputs to the address lines of an external >EPROM, and the PICs inputs to the EPROMs data lines. This allows for a >*very* tight PIC loop, you set the outputs to the EPROM address, read the >EPROMs data, adjust the PWM timer, lather, rinse, repeat. This can be done >faster than if the data were actually in the PIC's ROM area! Hmmm. That's an interesting approach. I kinda like it except those 40 pin PICs are about $11 each... :-/ >A variation of this idea would be to have four loadable counters as the >address pointers, with the PIC controlling the enable lines of the >tri-statable counters. This way one write of the PIC could select between >the four addresses of the four voices, which could then be incremented >simultaneously. You could also use a smaller PIC. Each of the counters >could also go to different EPROMS, in which case all the EPROM's data lines >would be run in parallel and the EPROMs enable lines would be used as the >data selection lines. I've done something similar before-- but I skipped the presetable counters. Instead I sent a few I/O lines to the top address bits that let me select 8K chunks of the EPROM (each "sample"). Then a single global "clear" line cleared the counters and a single "clock" line (at whatever rate) played the sample. (The EPROM outputs went directly to a little resistor based D/A and into a lm386 audio amp.) (It was a weird little "digitized sound doorbell" I made during college.) Atari's Nightmare board uses two sets of presettable counters to load a start address and a length, and then free-runs the counters to load out the samples. Works nice, but takes two 16 bit writes to set the address and another two for the length, and a bunch of board space for the counters... >The ones that I bought a couple of, at Radio Shack, a while back were based >on the shift register approach, they included a schematic of their guts. >But that doesn't mean a thing, since most of what Radio Shack sells, they >found in someone else's garbage, there is no telling what has been on the >shelves of the "Shack" through the years. And it seems like I remember some >noise IC based on a leaky (zener) diode. I don't remember the part number. I know it's in the "yellow" Forrest Mimms "Engineers Notebook" RatShack was selling around '86... >The shift registers are definitely lacking in low end noise. Just compare >the rumbling explosions used in Space War where a leaky transistor was used >as the noise source and the hollow tinny explosions of Star Castle, where >the shift register approach was used. The Space War is much nicer. Yeah, that Space War sit-at *really* had a nice base rumble. Not as cool as Blasteroids with the big 8" woofer pointed at you, but then I suspect the Blasteroids sound board probably cost more than the entire Space War PCB's... ;-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 09:11:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 09:11:18 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 09:13:02 -0800 To: vectorlist From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: 68HC11's Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist >If you'd consider an hc11 instead, I picked up a bunch of boards with >the 44 pin variety of this microcontroller. And it has EErom in it to >save high scores! The 68HC11 is a nice chip. I'd probably stick to a PIC or 8051 though since I have the development tools/programmers/etc for those already. I'm going to concentrate on the multi-game hardware/software at this pont, so this sound stuff is "up for grabs" as far as I'm concerned. ;-) Whoever wants to tackle it can use whatever they want... (Just remember to keep the cost down!) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 10:17:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 10:17:43 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:17:39 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: bpaul's manual copies Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Just a word of caution to anyone thinking of buying the $25 copies of Sega manuals that Bill Paul is selling that he has reduced the schematic pages to 8 1/2 * 11 from the original 11 * 17, making them very difficult to read. Considering I bought them JUST for the schematics and wiring diagrams (since most of the rest is duplicated in the other Sega manuals) I'm a bit annoyed right now.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 11:03:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 11:03:34 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 2 May 97 11:02 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970502105157.372fc364@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist From: Zonn Subject: Re: Universal Sound Board? Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist At 09:10 AM 5/2/97 -0800, you wrote: > >>But I hated to give up the "cheapness" of the PWM output of the PIC in >>exchange for an external D/A and all the muxing involved, so I thought >>another possibility would still be to use the PIC as the output device, >>controlled by a master CPU. > >Well, I'd kinda agree except that a dedicated 10bit DAC is only $1.50 and >an op-amp for the voltage output stage is only $.50, so if you already have >a "control" CPU you could just run the DAC directly and avoid the pics, and >the control CPU could use an external EPROM... > >So there's a $1 8051 with support components ($1), EPROM ($depends), DAC >($1.50), TLO-82 ($.50)... Pretty cheap. The 8051 will run at about a MIP >at 12MHz, which should be good for a few voics, and the waveforms could be >complex from the ROM... I agree. When you want a DAC, buy a DAC. Though I think you can do multiplies quite a bit faster in a PIC than the 8051 (I've written math packages for both). So if you want to do any kind of, on the fly, volume control, sending the data through a PIC might get you a little better thorough put... >The same could be said for an 8051 (w/out external ROM) and a pair of >POKEY's... (grand total about $3 in parts...) :-) I'll probably get flamed for this... I should start by saying Tempest *is* my favorite game, but none the less, I think the sounds of those Pokey chips basically *suck*. They're not versatile enough to do a seamless job of imitating the analog sections of most game cards, and their white noise generation is randomly spaced square waves (the shift register approach). The "Zoom" sound in Tempest sounds more like a credit card on a stuckle wall than any kind of true "Engine Rumble" (Of course who knows, beside Dave Theurer(sp?) what "Zooming" really represents! Maybe it represents sliding down a stuckle wall with your credit cards hanging out of you back pocket. If so, Pokeys were a GREAT choice for Tempest!). Are Pokeys still being made? Loose the Pokeys! (The following editorial represents only the views of the author and not that of the Vectored Game Mailing List and Associates. Any complaints should be sent directly to the author, where they can be thoroughly ignored.) >>The PIC could either look at a parallel port, and when I receives the data >>adjust it's PWM counter's accordingly. Or it could use one of those >>dedicated serial ports (data/clock) which can be run *really* fast, as it's >>input. Since the PIC doesn't have to convert serial to parallel in >>software, this can be just as fast. Either method would allow the PICs to >>be nothing but dedicated D/A's with the possibility of 4 channels per PIC >>and very little external hardware. > >Or if you're going to use serial anyway, just use a single PIC and one of >those Max528's. About $7 with serial input and 8 voltage output 8 bit >D/A's in one package... I like this idea a lot! I'll have to look into that Maxim(sp?) chip (Does Maxim make some cool chips or what?). I imagine the clock rate needed to constantly refresh 8 continuous samples of audio is pretty high. (Oh like: 8*8*SampleRate) I believe the 68HC11 has a built in MUL instruction making Al and Jess's idea of using the 68HC11 more viable. I think a 68HC11 and a few of those Maxim chips might be a pretty cool way to go. Assuming the 68HC11 could do the clocking in hardware (through a built in serial port?), the 68HC11 could do attack/decay control in software. If not, you can do the Attack/Decay using some properly designed sample tables, meaning more EPROM. Of course the 68HC11 also has the built in PWM (The 68HC11 was *another* approach I was looking at when thinking of a Cinematronics universal sound card.) It's also pretty simple to use an external latch (or two) as part of the addressing of the 68HC11 to allow for banking. And the 68HC11 being a nice, straight forward, Von Neuman device, table look ups [of the sampled wave in EPROM] is simple. Though for simpling data moving, it is a tad slower than tbe PICs... > >>If you use one of the 33 I/O (40 pin) PICs, you can dedicate 8 lines to >>inputs, and the rest (minus the PWM, and sound trigger lines) to outputs. >>You can then connect the PICs outputs to the address lines of an external >>EPROM, and the PICs inputs to the EPROMs data lines. This allows for a >>*very* tight PIC loop, you set the outputs to the EPROM address, read the >>EPROMs data, adjust the PWM timer, lather, rinse, repeat. This can be done >>faster than if the data were actually in the PIC's ROM area! > >Hmmm. That's an interesting approach. I kinda like it except those 40 pin >PICs are about $11 each... :-/ I know, hence the external counters and a lower end PIC. But then again how many sound cards do you intend to buy? Even if you used 4 $11 PICs, another $50 worth of "other stuff", a $50 PCB. Considering the prices I've paid for my collection of Sega Boards, a "Universal Sound card at $150" sounds like a deal to me! If one were available "right now", I'd be filling out a check, "right now"! And hell, if I owned the card I'd want the $25 reprogrammable PICs anyways! I'd want a "Universal" Universal Sound card! Am I the only one to pay more than $150 for a game board? >>A variation of this idea would be to have four loadable counters as the >>address pointers, with the PIC controlling the enable lines of the >>tri-statable counters. This way one write of the PIC could select between >>the four addresses of the four voices, which could then be incremented >>simultaneously. You could also use a smaller PIC. Each of the counters >>could also go to different EPROMS, in which case all the EPROM's data lines >>would be run in parallel and the EPROMs enable lines would be used as the >>data selection lines. > >I've done something similar before-- but I skipped the presetable counters. >Instead I sent a few I/O lines to the top address bits that let me select >8K chunks of the EPROM (each "sample"). Then a single global "clear" line >cleared the counters and a single "clock" line (at whatever rate) played >the sample. (The EPROM outputs went directly to a little resistor based >D/A and into a lm386 audio amp.) (It was a weird little "digitized sound >doorbell" I made during college.) > >Atari's Nightmare board uses two sets of presettable counters to load a >start address and a length, and then free-runs the counters to load out the >samples. Works nice, but takes two 16 bit writes to set the address and >another two for the length, and a bunch of board space for the counters... Four 16 bit writes for the entire sound doesn't sound bad at all! The problem is that if the samples are not being fed through the CPU, no attack/decay control can be done. It's too much trouble anyway. That's what CPU's are for. What's the point in using a processor if it's just going to sit around and wait for the hardware to do what it should be doing itself? Those poor Atari guys just didn't have the luxury of cheap processors... Using a processor you need only set the counters at the start of the sound, no length, then one clock line is used to increment all counters. Though for many of the Cinematronics games you'd want to run the samples at different speeds, based on what the game called for (Ex: Armor Attack tanks are the same sound engine, but speeded up as the game progresses. They do this a lot in their games.), so you (ok *I*) might want separate clocks. -Zonn PS I'll look around the local electronic surplus stores for the noise generator and let you know if I find anything. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 11:04:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 11:04:16 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:04:13 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: parts cost Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Clay said: "I'm going to concentrate on the multi-game hardware/software at this pont, so this sound stuff is "up for grabs" as far as I'm concerned. ;-) Whoever wants to tackle it can use whatever they want... (Just remember to keep the cost down!)" Considering that the bare board is probably going to be $200, spending $100 on parts doesn't seem out of line. If anyone knows of a cheaper PC house, i'd be interested in hearing about it. Like I said in a previous mail message, I used to get good prices on double-sided boards from Rob Lashinski at Capitol Circuits in Carol Stream IL, but I don't know if Rob is still around (this was over 10 years ago). I'm still leaning towards a cheap 16 bit Analog Devices DSP. There must be some sound code around for these things somewhere... From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 11:40:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 11:40:33 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970502113540.0067d020 > X-Sender: wpaul X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 11:35:40 -0700 To: vectorlist From: Bill Paul Subject: Re: bpaul's manual copies In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist At 10:17 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Just a word of caution to anyone thinking of buying the $25 copies of >Sega manuals that Bill Paul is selling that he has reduced the schematic >pages to 8 1/2 * 11 from the original 11 * 17, making them very difficult >to read. > >Considering I bought them JUST for the schematics and wiring diagrams >(since most of the rest is duplicated in the other Sega manuals) I'm >a bit annoyed right now.. > To Al and all, Sorry if you were mislead into thinking I was going to copy all the 11x17 double sided schematics to their original size. I actually was going to do this, but it turned out to be extremely time consuming, difficult to store the master copy, a pain to fold all the pages in properly, and extra dificutly during the binding process. I did consider quality and clarity an issue, and since the (64%) 8.5 x 11 copy is perfectly legible, I went ahead and made it that way. The only exception is the text is smaller, but still readable. So if this is unsatisfactory to you, I will (for you and you only), send 11x17 copies of the Space Fury schematics, unbound, folded in half, at no charge. As for anyone else, this is fair warning. The schematics in Space Fury, Zector, as well as a few of my Atari schematics are reduced in size if the copy quality allows it. If I had my choice, I would produce an identical copy of the original, including the brown cover, rather than the negative image cover, but economics and feasabilty changed the way it came out. Thanks for your time, -BP ==================================== Bill Paul bpaul Q-161A2 619-658-3741 ==================================== From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 11:40:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 11:40:43 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:42:23 -0800 To: vectorlist From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: parts cost Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist >Considering that the bare board is probably going to be $200, spending >$100 on parts doesn't seem out of line. Well, I want to keep the price reasonable and more importantly keep the scope of the project small enough that it can be realistically completed in the spare time of those of use working on it. :-) So in general I'm trying to avoid lots of chips, chips with fine pitch surface mount packages, and wide address busses that we're need x16 or x24 bit data paths on. Unless someone has a copy of PADs PCB or Tango and knows how to use it, I'm thinking this will be hand routed and I'm not keen on playing with 10000 nets in two layers... ;-) We could always just use one of those $99 TI 32c0xx "audio" eval boards... ;-) >If anyone knows of a cheaper PC house, i'd be interested in hearing about >it. Like I said in a previous mail message, I used to get good prices on >double-sided boards from Rob Lashinski at Capitol Circuits in Carol Stream >IL, but I don't know if Rob is still around (this was over 10 years ago). Well, I got a quote of $12/each for an 8.5"x11" PCB. Of course that was from hong-kong, and a minimum order of 500 units... :-/ I really want to keep the board size to 8.5x6" which would get us under $50/pcb (bare) without much trouble. My proto's will be more in the $60-70/ea range (qty 4), albeit without soldermask or silkscreen... >I'm still leaning towards a cheap 16 bit Analog Devices DSP. There must be >some sound code around for these things somewhere... I think that's a groovy idea. Do you have time to learn to program the thing though? (That's why I keep kicking the PIC/other ideas around with Zonn.) This does have DSP written all over it though, I must admit-- and the AD beats the hell out of the TI stuff for programming, IMHO... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 11:47:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 11:47:48 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:42:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199705021842.NAA22461 > From: Michael Schulz To: vectorlist Subject: Is there a vectorlist archive Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Is there an archive of old vectorlist messages, and if so, where? Thanks, Mike -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Schulz | Texas Instruments, SpecWorks Software Design Engineer | (972) 927-5847, mschulz ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------- The opinions and views expressed are my own, and do ------------- ----------- not necessarily reflect those of Texas Instruments Inc. ----------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 12:07:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 12:07:35 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199705021857.OAA05036 > Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:48:56 -0500 From: Mark Jenison In-Reply-To: aek (Al Kossow) "parts cost" (May 2, 11:04am) References: <199705021809.OAA00856 > X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: parts cost Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist On May 2, 11:04am, Al Kossow wrote: > Subject: parts cost > > Clay said: > > "I'm > going to concentrate on the multi-game hardware/software at this pont, so > this sound stuff is "up for grabs" as far as I'm concerned. ;-) Whoever > wants to tackle it can use whatever they want... (Just remember to keep > the cost down!)" > > Considering that the bare board is probably going to be $200, spending > $100 on parts doesn't seem out of line. I realize that this is an exercise in testing your technological limits in being able to build this, and I realize everyone loves multigames when they work, but I would think it would be cheaper just to buy the individual sound boards for each game. For example, next week I'll be selling these boards at the following prices: Sound boards ------------ Eliminator/Zektor $20 Space Fury $25 Universal Sound board $30 Speechboards $10 So you see, you can get every sound board for every Sega XY game for $85. I'll even sell them CHEAPER if your willing to take broken ones and fix them yourself! And it's also neat to have one EPROM board with every game on it and not have to swap it. But... EPROM boards ------------ unpopulated, untested $5 populated, tested $15 So while you're solutions will be clever, slick and fancy, there is possibly a more feasible solution to having multiple Sega XY games (though it would be cool to bank the CPU EPROM/Special chips and speech board EPROMs so you don't have to swap those all the time.) Anyway, just thought I'd provide an alternative solution for now. ________________ ______ ___ _____ __ / __/ / / / |/ / / |/ //|/|/|_______________ Mark Jenison / __/ /_/ / / / | // | / |__ __/ _ /__ \ jenison /___/___/_/_//_/_/_/|_//__|/__| / / / // / / Sega XY FAQ author /_/|_| /_/ /____/_/|_| ________________ The One and Only 4-player vector game From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 12:24:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 12:24:11 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <336A3DF9.3951@telis.org> Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 12:18:17 -0700 From: Bill Esquivel X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: bpaul's manual copies References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Al, I have a tacscan original manual you can borrow. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 12:28:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 12:28:37 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:28:34 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Is there a vectorlist archive Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist they should be going into an archive file on www.spies.com i'll put a link to it in www.spies.com/arcade From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 12:30:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 12:29:59 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:31:47 -0800 To: vectorlist From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Universal Sound Board? Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist >I agree. When you want a DAC, buy a DAC. Though I think you can do >multiplies quite a bit faster in a PIC than the 8051 (I've written math >packages for both). So if you want to do any kind of, on the fly, volume >control, sending the data through a PIC might get you a little better >thorough put... Hmmmm. We could do what the Universal Sound Board does and use PWM outputs from the PIC tied to caps to make a envelope control for each voice output... Doesn't the 8051 have a MUL instruction? Thought for sure it did. Seems like its a 24 clock execution time? (So yeah, if you run a PIC at 20MHz and the 8051 at 12MHz, you'd have what-- around 48 instructions on the PIC to do a multiply and come out ahead of the '51... That shouldn't be too tough. ;-) >I should start by saying Tempest *is* my favorite game, but none the less, I >think the sounds of those Pokey chips basically *suck*. Well, in practice I'd agree with you, but I think the old "beep-boop" and weird grinding periodic noise sounds the POKEYs make are kinda cool in that "retro" way. And 4 voices for $.80 (price of a Ball-Blazer cart) is hard to beat... >>Or if you're going to use serial anyway, just use a single PIC and one of >>those Max528's. About $7 with serial input and 8 voltage output 8 bit >>D/A's in one package... > >I like this idea a lot! I'll have to look into that Maxim(sp?) chip (Does >Maxim make some cool chips or what?). I imagine the clock rate needed to >constantly refresh 8 continuous samples of audio is pretty high. (Oh like: >8*8*SampleRate) I think it's more like 16*8*rate since there's going to be some bits to select which channel to talk to. I think it's a 3-wire interface. >It's also pretty simple to use an external latch (or two) as part of the >addressing of the 68HC11 to allow for banking. And the 68HC11 being a nice, >straight forward, Von Neuman device, table look ups [of the sampled wave in >EPROM] is simple. Though for simpling data moving, it is a tad slower than >tbe PICs... Yeah, I always just OR the program and data store enable pins together on the 8051... Aside from still having a "DPTR" it's a little more "normal" to use that way... ;-) >I know, hence the external counters and a lower end PIC. But then again how >many sound cards do you intend to buy? Even if you used 4 $11 PICs, another >$50 worth of "other stuff", a $50 PCB. Considering the prices I've paid for >my collection of Sega Boards, a "Universal Sound card at $150" sounds like a >deal to me! If one were available "right now", I'd be filling out a check, >"right now"! And hell, if I owned the card I'd want the $25 reprogrammable >PICs anyways! I'd want a "Universal" Universal Sound card! > >Am I the only one to pay more than $150 for a game board? Well, there's those "magic" marketing price points. (some lower ones) $99, $199, $249, $499, $999 (and the higher ones) The rationale being that a particular group of consumers will be willing to purchase a particular item since it's "under" a price that they consider "high". I'm probably overly price-aware since our "real" business is low-margin, high volume. If we sell 250,000 or something a month and we're paying an extra $.10 for it that's $300,000 a year off the bottom line. I definately want the multi-game ROM/input mapper board to be $99 or under. If the UniversalSB doesn't fit on there at that price I suppose it could be another $99 board... ;-) >Four 16 bit writes for the entire sound doesn't sound bad at all! The >problem is that if the samples are not being fed through the CPU, no >attack/decay control can be done. Nightmare used a 4bit ADPCM sample system (Basically a telephone chip) which they used a four bit mux to swap nibbles to the ADPCM on every address clock. Kinda cool idea, pretty efficient, particularly compared to having a processor fetch and store to the codec at the right rate... >It's too much trouble anyway. That's what CPU's are for. What's the point >in using a processor if it's just going to sit around and wait for the >hardware to do what it should be doing itself? Those poor Atari guys just >didn't have the luxury of cheap processors... Well, yeah, they were just saving cycles for game logic I'd imagine (Nightmare is pretty busy). I have a schematic from Atari for a "Sampled Audio Cruncher" (never made it into a design as far as I know) that was a 68000 that mixed and played 8 bits samples out through a 12 bit DAC. (Kind-of a souped up Bally/Midway Cheap Squeak Deluxe board.) >PS I'll look around the local electronic surplus stores for the noise >generator and let you know if I find anything. Thanks, that'd be interesting. Maybe we should be looking at modifying the existing Universal Sound Board? It already has 9 DACs with Whit noise generators, etc. We could bank switch the downloadable RAMs out with EPROM and add another couple interface port latches and use the existing hardware card with a new program to be the sound source for Zektor/Elim/SF... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 12:48:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 12:48:25 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:48:22 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: bpaul's manual copies Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Thanks, I did have originals for Trek and Tac/Scan, and a copy from Rick of 4 Player Eliminator, so Space Fury and Zektor were the only manuals I didn't have schematics for. I just created links to the monthy archive of vectorlist messages on www.spies.com, so you can get to every message sent out now (a month at a time..) From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 12:58:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 12:58:27 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:54:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199705021954.OAA22497 > From: Michael Schulz To: vectorlist In-Reply-To: I just created links to the monthy archive of vectorlist >messages on www.spies.com, so you can get to every message >sent out now (a month at a time..) > Thanks! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Schulz | Texas Instruments, SpecWorks Software Design Engineer | (972) 927-5847, mschulz ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------- The opinions and views expressed are my own, and do ------------- ----------- not necessarily reflect those of Texas Instruments Inc. ----------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 13:01:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 13:01:48 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199705022005.QAA10636 > Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:57:24 -0500 From: Mark Jenison In-Reply-To: Michael Schulz "Re: archive" (May 2, 2:54pm) References: <199705022004.QAA10541 > X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: archive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist All, I have a new version of the FAQ. Where do I send it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 14:00:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 13:59:48 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:55:27 -0400 (EDT) From: David Shuman To: vectorlist Subject: Re: parts cost In-Reply-To: <199705021857.OAA05036 > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist On Fri, 2 May 1997, Mark Jenison wrote: > For example, next week I'll be selling these boards at the following prices: > ------------ > Eliminator/Zektor $20 Just writing to confirm I'm locked in for one at $10 + my trade-in. --Dave-- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 14:06:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 14:06:51 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199705022110.RAA16697 > Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:02:19 -0500 From: Mark Jenison In-Reply-To: David Shuman "Re: parts cost" (May 2, 4:55pm) References: <199705022105.RAA16164 > X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: parts cost Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist On May 2, 4:55pm, David Shuman wrote: > Subject: Re: parts cost > On Fri, 2 May 1997, Mark Jenison wrote: > > For example, next week I'll be selling these boards at the following prices: > > ------------ > > Eliminator/Zektor $20 > > Just writing to confirm I'm locked in for one at $10 + my trade-in. Yep. I guess I didn't make it clear that I have multiples of these... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 14:08:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 14:08:42 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Message-Id: <9705022103.AA29938 > Subject: Re: parts cost To: vectorlist Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:03:52 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199705021857.OAA05036 > from "Mark Jenison" at May 2, 97 01:48:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 654 Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist > For example, next week I'll be selling these boards at the following prices: > > Sound boards > ------------ > Space Fury $25 Can I go ahead and put an order in now for one of these? :-) > EPROM boards > ------------ > populated, tested $15 If you have one populated and tested for Space Fury, I'll take one of these as well... :-) John +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | John W. Linville To Be, Rather Than To Seem. | | linvjw http://www4.ncsu.edu/eos/users/j/jwlinvi/www | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 14:10:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 14:10:39 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Message-Id: <9705022105.AA27932 > Subject: Re: parts cost To: vectorlist Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:05:46 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199705021857.OAA05036 > from "Mark Jenison" at May 2, 97 01:48:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 396 Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Ooops, should've checked the message headers...that was meant to be sent just to Mark... Sorry! John +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | John W. Linville To Be, Rather Than To Seem. | | linvjw http://www4.ncsu.edu/eos/users/j/jwlinvi/www | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 14:15:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 14:15:45 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 2 May 97 14:14 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970502141118.13b7c4f0@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist From: Zonn Subject: Re: Universal Sound Board? Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist At 12:31 PM 5/2/97 -0800, you wrote: >>I agree. When you want a DAC, buy a DAC. Though I think you can do >>multiplies quite a bit faster in a PIC than the 8051 (I've written math >>packages for both). So if you want to do any kind of, on the fly, volume >>control, sending the data through a PIC might get you a little better >>thorough put... > >Hmmmm. We could do what the Universal Sound Board does and use PWM outputs >from the PIC tied to caps to make a envelope control for each voice >output... > >Doesn't the 8051 have a MUL instruction? Thought for sure it did. Seems >like its a 24 clock execution time? (So yeah, if you run a PIC at 20MHz >and the 8051 at 12MHz, you'd have what-- around 48 instructions on the PIC >to do a multiply and come out ahead of the '51... That shouldn't be too >tough. ;-) It must. The company I worked at two jobs ago (I contract) was a medical manufactoring company. My job was to program an 8051 derivative, that was connected to a DAC, to make all the sounds needed by a respirator. (Kind of a Respirator Universal Sound Board) I had to do all the attack and decay envelopes in software, and I didn't write MUL routine, so I'd say yes, it does have a multiply. (As a side note: On one version of the sound card, when something *bad* happened, oh like breath delivery going "flatline" the error sound that sounded was Bullwinkle saying "Now watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!". Pretty funny, but the FDA takes such things VERY seriously, and I personally erased that copy of the EPROM, just to be sure it didn't go any further. Never can tell you know. And I can't imagine anything more uncomfortable than being questioned in a wrongful death suit, and having the defense attorney playing that sound. *Shudder*) >>I should start by saying Tempest *is* my favorite game, but none the less, I >>think the sounds of those Pokey chips basically *suck*. > >Well, in practice I'd agree with you, but I think the old "beep-boop" and >weird grinding periodic noise sounds the POKEYs make are kinda cool in that >"retro" way. And 4 voices for $.80 (price of a Ball-Blazer cart) is hard >to beat... Oh don't get me wrong, I wouldn't change the sound of my Tempest! I just think they used what they had (what was cheap) and ended up with lousy white noise, and tinny, little "beepie" sounds. And I know you couldn't make the analog sounds that were used in even the original Asteroids. (Damn! I can't believe I paid $2 for some old carts to get the Pokeys, I don't even know what the carts are.) >>>Or if you're going to use serial anyway, just use a single PIC and one of >>>those Max528's. About $7 with serial input and 8 voltage output 8 bit >>>D/A's in one package... >> >>I like this idea a lot! I'll have to look into that Maxim(sp?) chip (Does >>Maxim make some cool chips or what?). I imagine the clock rate needed to >>constantly refresh 8 continuous samples of audio is pretty high. (Oh like: >>8*8*SampleRate) > >I think it's more like 16*8*rate since there's going to be some bits to >select which channel to talk to. I think it's a 3-wire interface. Ouch. That's fast. >>It's also pretty simple to use an external latch (or two) as part of the >>addressing of the 68HC11 to allow for banking. And the 68HC11 being a nice, >>straight forward, Von Neuman device, table look ups [of the sampled wave in >>EPROM] is simple. Though for simpling data moving, it is a tad slower than >>tbe PICs... > >Yeah, I always just OR the program and data store enable pins together on >the 8051... Aside from still having a "DPTR" it's a little more "normal" >to use that way... ;-) > >>I know, hence the external counters and a lower end PIC. But then again how >>many sound cards do you intend to buy? Even if you used 4 $11 PICs, another >>$50 worth of "other stuff", a $50 PCB. Considering the prices I've paid for >>my collection of Sega Boards, a "Universal Sound card at $150" sounds like a >>deal to me! If one were available "right now", I'd be filling out a check, >>"right now"! And hell, if I owned the card I'd want the $25 reprogrammable >>PICs anyways! I'd want a "Universal" Universal Sound card! >> >>Am I the only one to pay more than $150 for a game board? > >Well, there's those "magic" marketing price points. > >(some lower ones) $99, $199, $249, $499, $999 (and the higher ones) > >The rationale being that a particular group of consumers will be willing to >purchase a particular item since it's "under" a price that they consider >"high". > >I'm probably overly price-aware since our "real" business is low-margin, >high volume. If we sell 250,000 or something a month and we're paying an >extra $.10 for it that's $300,000 a year off the bottom line. I definately >want the multi-game ROM/input mapper board to be $99 or under. If the >UniversalSB doesn't fit on there at that price I suppose it could be >another $99 board... ;-) My current job is consumer products and I can get caught up in the same thing (save a dime and your a hero). So I was just taking a step back and wondering how much *I* would pay, once. I think the real key here is that if your volunteering to lay this out by (*choke*) hand (*cough*), a low part count would be the goal. One $100 part that did everything we needed, with just the data and address lines needing connecting would be much more desirable than $20 worth of glue logic that did the same thing, if it consisted of 39 ICs, 10 transistors, 14 caps, etc. > >Maybe we should be looking at modifying the existing Universal Sound Board? >It already has 9 DACs with Whit noise generators, etc. We could bank >switch the downloadable RAMs out with EPROM and add another couple >interface port latches and use the existing hardware card with a new >program to be the sound source for Zektor/Elim/SF... Sounds like a more *realistic* goal, if you could create all the proper sounds! -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 14:16:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 14:15:57 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:17:26 -0800 To: vectorlist From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: parts cost Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist General-purpose sound board vs. the real thing... >Sound boards >------------ >Eliminator/Zektor $20 >Space Fury $25 Well you can put me down for one of each. :-) I really want to see/hear these things in person. >So you see, you can get every sound board for every Sega XY game for $85. >I'll even sell them CHEAPER if your willing to take broken ones and fix them >yourself! That's indeed cool, but I've been under the impression that there's not a whole lot of these things just sitting around. I'd love to be wrong on that. :-) I kinda self-appointed myself to do the multi-game switcher (I really do hate swapping boards) since there's a nice clean software/hardware method to do it. (At least as far as the game code and Speech ROMs are concerned) I'm not religiously aligned with a replacement sound board other than the fact that I've kinda guestimated there would be about ~50 people on the net that would want a multi-game and I figured there were less than that many sound boards readily available for cheap... >So while you're solutions will be clever, slick and fancy, there is possibly a >more feasible solution to having multiple Sega XY games (though it would be >cool to bank the CPU EPROM/Special chips and speech board EPROMs so you don't >have to swap those all the time.) Well, this might make for a real short discussion-- how many "Sets" do you have? -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 14:23:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 14:23:28 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:23:24 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Version 1.6 of the X/Y FAQ Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Mark just sent me version 1.6 of the Sega X/Y FAQ it is up on spies at: http://www.spies.com/arcade/simulation/gameHardware/segaxyfaq1.6 From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 14:32:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 14:32:44 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199705022136.RAA19331 > Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:28:24 -0500 From: Mark Jenison In-Reply-To: Clay Cowgill "Re: parts cost" (May 2, 2:17pm) References: <199705022120.RAA17636 > X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: parts cost Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist On May 2, 2:17pm, Clay Cowgill wrote: > Subject: Re: parts cost > General-purpose sound board vs. the real thing... > > >Sound boards > >------------ > >Eliminator/Zektor $20 > >Space Fury $25 > > Well you can put me down for one of each. :-) I really want to see/hear > these things in person. You're down for these two. > >So you see, you can get every sound board for every Sega XY game for $85. > >I'll even sell them CHEAPER if your willing to take broken ones and fix them > >yourself! > > That's indeed cool, but I've been under the impression that there's not a > whole lot of these things just sitting around. I'd love to be wrong on > that. :-) You are :-) > Well, this might make for a real short discussion-- how many "Sets" do you have? I believe I have more than enough to satisfy the needs of the RGVAC. However, I have a good number of these in need of repair, so I may sell out of working ones quickly, and then there will be a wait for me to repair some more... BTW, I also have all the other boards available, too... ________________ ______ ___ _____ __ / __/ / / / |/ / / |/ //|/|/|_______________ Mark Jenison / __/ /_/ / / / | // | / |__ __/ _ /__ \ jenison /___/___/_/_//_/_/_/|_//__|/__| / / / // / / Sega XY FAQ author /_/|_| /_/ /____/_/|_| ________________ The One and Only 4-player vector game From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 14:41:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 14:41:24 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:41:20 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: multi-game proto board Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist well, it looks like the sound part of it is still up in the air, so what about a board with just the bank switched ROM, 4 player input mux, level converters for a WG monitor, with adr/data buffering and a couple of 22V10's wired up for io and adr decoding, then a big wire wrap area to prototype the sound hardware? Bring out the adr/data and strobes to vias so they're easy to get to. That way, if you didn't want to mess with the sound at all you could bank switch the existing sound cards with a single wire over to this card which would replace the EPROM board. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 14:50:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 14:50:02 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:51:36 -0800 To: vectorlist From: Clay Cowgill Subject: G-80 Multigame... Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist OK, here's a quiz for everyone then. (please reply to "clay " so we don't clutter up the mailing list) Before Dave, Zonn, Al and all of us spend a whole bunch of time designing/coding/producing a Multi-game system for the Sega G-80 games, would you: 1) Buy a Multi-game board for $99 that allowed you to play (on one machine): Star Trek Zektor Space Fury Eliminator Tac Scan But without "sound effects" for Space Fury, Eliminator/Zektor unless you buy a sound board for those specifically? 2) Buy a Multi-game board for $199 that allowed you to play (on one machine): Star Trek Zektor Space Fury Eliminator Tac Scan With sounds for all games. (although the SF/Zektor/Elim sounds may not be 100% original.) 3) Pay another $50 for a "development" version of the board with documentation that allows you to hook up a PC/MAC by a serial cable and write your own games? The point of this isn't a business venture, but when making a small production run of printed circuit boards I need to have a feel for how many I'll be doing to get quantity price breaks and buy parts, etc. There will be some "profit" margin in there to cover bad boards, general expenses, the occasional lost package, and the inevitable "support" time to help troubleshoot, etc. but with a grand total of maybe 50 units being produced (ever) nobody's going to get rich... (The answer doesn't *really* matter to me since I'm doing one for myself one way or the other, but it'll help us figure out if we should worry about price or not...) Thanks, -Clay P.S. Hey Al, how many people are on the mailing list? Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 15:00:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 15:00:03 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:55:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Hedley Rainnie X-Sender: hedley@chicago To: vectorlist Subject: Audio emulation In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Folks, I have discussed custom audio board emulation with Al recently. Basically the idea is to spice the analog on the boards and come up with .wav file output from the simulations. I have since refined this thought to an idea of a equivalent digital block that works at say 8khz and maintains (via approximations based off the original spice runs) state of the circuit for the sounds in question. Parts of the circuit that produce ramps or slow changing output can be dumbed down from the 8khz output rate (in case the model for the device in question is computationally too intensive). I don't see P5 based platforms really getting to upset by the 8khz block calculations. Hedley PS: The Zektor story has been a really quite inspiring. Sort of stuff that in other contexts sounds a bit like the holy grail. Great story, great ending. hedley | 8x8, Inc hedley | Santa Clara, CA. (408) 654-0883 From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 15:01:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 15:01:11 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:00:40 -0800 To: vectorlist From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: multi-game proto board Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist >well, it looks like the sound part of it is still up in the air, so >what about a board with just the bank switched ROM, 4 player input >mux, level converters for a WG monitor, with adr/data buffering >and a couple of 22V10's wired up for io and adr decoding, then a >big wire wrap area to prototype the sound hardware? Bring out the >adr/data and strobes to vias so they're easy to get to. That way, >if you didn't want to mess with the sound at all you could bank >switch the existing sound cards with a single wire over to this >card which would replace the EPROM board. That's pretty much what my proto's are. There's the bank selection hardware (I think it fits in a 16L8) with the EPROMs, a PIC to handle the input mapping and NMI generation, and (tentatively) a serial port and SRAM for program development. The level convertors are easy enough as long as you can live with the pincushion distortion of the WG monitor. Wire wrap area is probably a good idea, but I haven't looked in to it yet. It'll push the cost of the PCB up since the drill time will increase... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 15:03:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 15:03:32 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:04:39 -0800 To: vectorlist From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: multi-game proto board Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Hmmmmm. If it wasn't for the metal box we could just make a new backplane with two extra slots for all the sound cards, then bank select them somehow... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 15:08:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 15:07:56 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 2 May 97 15:06 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970502150339.21bfd02c@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist From: Zonn Subject: Re: multi-game proto board Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist At 02:41 PM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote: > >well, it looks like the sound part of it is still up in the air, so >what about a board with just the bank switched ROM, 4 player input >mux, level converters for a WG monitor, with adr/data buffering >and a couple of 22V10's wired up for io and adr decoding, then a >big wire wrap area to prototype the sound hardware? Bring out the >adr/data and strobes to vias so they're easy to get to. That way, >if you didn't want to mess with the sound at all you could bank >switch the existing sound cards with a single wire over to this >card which would replace the EPROM board. Excellect idea, now your onto to something I'd *really* like to have. There is just one thing though. The difference between the Sega monitors and WG is more than just level shifting. The Sega monitor is capable of a faster vector sweep rate. The WG will not be able to keep up with Sega vector generator. I haven't tried this but my guess is that in order to see a non-distorted picture, your going to end up with a shrunkin image centered on the WG. You won't be able to compensate for this with signal amplification since the problem is in how fast you can "charge" the inductance of the yoke. The only way move the beam faster is to increase the maximum allowable yoke currents. Assuming the Yoke inductance remains constant, you must drive it with higher X/Y voltages. Which is why the Sega monitor needs +/- 50 volts while the WG monitor only uses +/-25. It's also why Sega monitors are so flamable. The fix for a WG would be a little involved, but not a lot. I would suggest parallelled transistors to handle the higher wattages (as opposed to the fan thingy). But mostly it would be changing values here and there to handle the higher +/- 50 volts. Since it would still be able to handle the slower Atari speeds the "upgraded" WG should still work with the Atari (and in the case of Boxing Bugs and War of the Worlds, Cinematronics) games. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 15:14:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 15:13:15 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199705022217.SAA22340 > Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:08:55 -0500 From: Mark Jenison In-Reply-To: Clay Cowgill "Re: multi-game proto board" (May 2, 3:04pm) References: <199705022207.SAA21710 > X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: multi-game proto board Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist On May 2, 3:04pm, Clay Cowgill wrote: > Subject: Re: multi-game proto board > Hmmmmm. If it wasn't for the metal box we could just make a new backplane > with two extra slots for all the sound cards, then bank select them > somehow... I've tried to look into this, but backplanes aren't cheap (but I'd prefer this personally, since if one piece of hardware goes down, I don't lose all 5 games). ________________ ______ ___ _____ __ / __/ / / / |/ / / |/ //|/|/|_______________ Mark Jenison / __/ /_/ / / / | // | / |__ __/ _ /__ \ jenison /___/___/_/_//_/_/_/|_//__|/__| / / / // / / Sega XY FAQ author /_/|_| /_/ /____/_/|_| ________________ The One and Only 4-player vector game From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 15:25:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 15:25:46 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 2 May 97 15:24 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970502152124.13b7c106@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist From: Zonn Subject: Re: multi-game proto board Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist At 03:00 PM 5/2/97 -0800, you wrote: >>well, it looks like the sound part of it is still up in the air, so >>what about a board with just the bank switched ROM, 4 player input >>mux, level converters for a WG monitor, with adr/data buffering >>and a couple of 22V10's wired up for io and adr decoding, then a >>big wire wrap area to prototype the sound hardware? Bring out the >>adr/data and strobes to vias so they're easy to get to. That way, >>if you didn't want to mess with the sound at all you could bank >>switch the existing sound cards with a single wire over to this >>card which would replace the EPROM board. > >That's pretty much what my proto's are. There's the bank selection >hardware (I think it fits in a 16L8) with the EPROMs, a PIC to handle the >input mapping and NMI generation, and (tentatively) a serial port and SRAM >for program development. The level convertors are easy enough as long as >you can live with the pincushion distortion of the WG monitor. So have you tried this? And all you get is the pincushion effect? No problem with filling the entire monitor with vectors? That would make life easier. Maybe the Sega Vector systems aren't using the full speed capabilities of the GO-8 monitors. That would be nice. Does anybody know exactly how fast the Sega system sweeps it's vectors? Is this in the FAQ? Should I just read the FAQ and stop bugging you guys? Or should I shut down Eudora and acutally get some work done today? -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 15:29:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 15:29:39 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 2 May 97 15:28 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970502152522.21bfdb52@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist From: Zonn Subject: Re: multi-game proto board Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist At 03:04 PM 5/2/97 -0800, you wrote: >Hmmmmm. If it wasn't for the metal box we could just make a new backplane >with two extra slots for all the sound cards, then bank select them >somehow... This is my current plan. I plan on selecting the cards by enable/disabling their address decoders with an extra 'AND' gate or something (that is hopefully already on the boards as an unused gate). I just got lucky and happen to have an extra card cage. :^) -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 15:43:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 15:43:20 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199705022247.SAA24238 > Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:39:03 -0500 From: Mark Jenison In-Reply-To: Zonn "Re: multi-game proto board" (May 2, 3:28pm) References: <199705022233.SAA23431 > X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: multi-game proto board Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist On May 2, 3:28pm, Zonn wrote: > Subject: Re: multi-game proto board > At 03:04 PM 5/2/97 -0800, you wrote: > >Hmmmmm. If it wasn't for the metal box we could just make a new backplane > >with two extra slots for all the sound cards, then bank select them > >somehow... > > This is my current plan. I plan on selecting the cards by enable/disabling > their address decoders with an extra 'AND' gate or something (that is > hopefully already on the boards as an unused gate). > > I just got lucky and happen to have an extra card cage. :^) So do I, but you CANT fit two cages in the Eliminator 4-player without modifying the cabinet, and I'd never consider doing that! If I could find one LONG piece to mount in the bottom of the cabinet with 8 slots, that would be a different story ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 15:48:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 15:48:18 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199705022252.SAA24485 > Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:44:01 -0500 From: Mark Jenison In-Reply-To: Clay Cowgill "Re: parts cost" (May 2, 2:17pm) References: <199705022120.RAA17636 > X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: parts cost Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist On the topic of vector monitors: I used to think 4-player Eliminator used to push the G08 to the limits with it's attract mode and constantly displaying that boarder on the outside, but ZEKTOR TOTALLY works the monitor over! It sounds like a chainsaw running in my 4-player Eliminator! (fancy demo mode, plus it draws 3 boarders around the screen during game play!) If you can find a monitor that displays Zektor correctly, you can display anything....maybe that's why you didn't see many Zektors; they blew the monitors as soon as you put them in! :-) ________________ ______ ___ _____ __ / __/ / / / |/ / / |/ //|/|/|_______________ Mark Jenison / __/ /_/ / / / | // | / |__ __/ _ /__ \ jenison /___/___/_/_//_/_/_/|_//__|/__| / / / // / / Sega XY FAQ author /_/|_| /_/ /____/_/|_| ________________ The One and Only 4-player vector game From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 15:53:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 15:53:33 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 2 May 97 15:52 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970502154916.2d57945c@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist From: Zonn Subject: Re: multi-game proto board Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist At 05:39 PM 5/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >On May 2, 3:28pm, Zonn wrote: >> Subject: Re: multi-game proto board >> At 03:04 PM 5/2/97 -0800, you wrote: >> >Hmmmmm. If it wasn't for the metal box we could just make a new backplane >> >with two extra slots for all the sound cards, then bank select them >> >somehow... >> >> This is my current plan. I plan on selecting the cards by enable/disabling >> their address decoders with an extra 'AND' gate or something (that is >> hopefully already on the boards as an unused gate). >> >> I just got lucky and happen to have an extra card cage. :^) > >So do I, but you CANT fit two cages in the Eliminator 4-player without >modifying the cabinet, and I'd never consider doing that! Ooooh! *shudder* to think of it! Only the Convert-a-cabinet gets the hacks. Hell the only control panel I have for it is an old Space Odessy, and the only Marquee (Beside the "Gunsmoke" that came with the cabinet *more shudders*) is a Tac/Scan that looks like it was used as a skate board, with the painted side down. I'm sure I can find room in it. My Eliminator 4-player remains dedicated, no hacks. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 16:41:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 16:41:44 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:43:34 -0800 To: vectorlist From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: multi-game proto board Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist >On May 2, 3:28pm, Zonn wrote: >> Subject: Re: multi-game proto board >> At 03:04 PM 5/2/97 -0800, you wrote: >> >Hmmmmm. If it wasn't for the metal box we could just make a new backplane >> >with two extra slots for all the sound cards, then bank select them >> >somehow... [...] >So do I, but you CANT fit two cages in the Eliminator 4-player without >modifying the cabinet, and I'd never consider doing that! > >If I could find one LONG piece to mount in the bottom of the cabinet with 8 >slots, that would be a different story ;-) Right, this would be the reason to do the new backplane-- just to have more slots available for all the sound card variations. You could use two of the "6 slot" backplanes and connect them together (resulting in a 10 slot unit). This is a really slow bus, so two layers would be fine. If you go with a metal cage I doubt it would even need any layers for EMI. (Not like anyone is going to take it through FCC part 15 anyway...) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 17:00:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 17:00:48 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:02:30 -0800 To: vectorlist From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: multi-game proto board Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist >So have you tried this? And all you get is the pincushion effect? No >problem with filling the entire monitor with vectors? That would make life >easier. Maybe the Sega Vector systems aren't using the full speed >capabilities of the GO-8 monitors. That would be nice. I haven't tried it myself-- others have though and the "distortion" effect was limited to an occasional miss-placed vector. You could probably drive the deflection section a little harder, or more likely just live with it. ;-) >Does anybody know exactly how fast the Sega system sweeps it's vectors? Is >this in the FAQ? Should I just read the FAQ and stop bugging you guys? Or >should I shut down Eudora and acutally get some work done today? I've pretty much given up on the "work" thing today. ;-) When I'm not replying to these there's been a constant stream of people in and out of my office... The Sega vector system is kinda like an Atari Digital vector generator. (A pair of DACs fed from a pair of digital counters.) It's does some funky stuff-- the data is stored in a polar format (length, angle) so rotation is really easy (and handled in the drawing hardware). They make what is essentially a binary rate multiplier to provide clock (increment) pulses to the digital counters at the correct rates to draw the lines at the right speed and distance. The only "gotcha" as far as the slew rate is concerned when using it with a Wells Gardner monitor is parallel loads on the counters to the DACs. (Those can make a big deflection fast when the new position is latched in.) Otherwise, the max vector slew rate looks to be something the WG monitors can handle OK. Distortions will kinda depend on the programming then. I'm trying a little game stuff on the system now, so I'll see if I induce any errors when programming. I think for new programs at least it's easy enough to avoid. (Just put some "null" objects in the vector display list that are positioned at the center of the screen. When these are between objects that can move around you'll be sure that you'd not drawing in the bottom right corner and then jump to upper left or something. The null objects (color guns off, but position information intact) force the beam to the center so the next parallel load on the counters can be at most a half-screen jump. For something like "Space War" just draw the sun in between the player ships... ;-) The CPU and Vector generators can be separately clocked, so I had kicked around the idea of dropping the vector draw speed a little to lower the slew rate, but that doesn't help the (possibly large) fast deflections caused by parallel loading the counters. (One advantage of the Atari Analog Vector generator always having to reset the beam to the center of the screen to get to a known location-- it helped keep those long vectors and max-deflection jumps to a minimum...) They have a weird little "protection" mechanism built in for the x/y outputs. They digitally clip the input values to the DACs. I guess it saves the monitor from most "programmer" errors writing big deflections to the DACs, but a failed op-amp or DAC will still make things a bit firey for the average GO-8. :-/ I gave a bunch of info to Al about the clipping regions and everything which I think is in his hardware descriptions on www.spies.com/arcade -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 17:16:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 17:16:24 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:12:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199705030012.UAA12570@mailrelay.tiac.net> X-Sender: fishd@pop.tiac.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist From: fishd Subject: Zektor snd bd component differences and missing snds Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Hi Folks, After comparing the schematics for both the Eliminator Sound board (800-3174) and the Zektor Sound board (800-3249) I've found a few components which have different values for each board, these are listed below. The Eliminator snd bd has the reference designations silkscreened on the board so locating the components is fairly easy. Ref Des ELIMINATOR ZEKTOR R5 10K 4.7K R9 33K 12K R71 270K 100K R79 2 MEG unused R122 220K 390K R132 220K 100K C9 0.01uF 0.0047uF C46 0.022uF 0.047uF Now about the missing sounds. The disassembly shows that all four registers on the board (3C, 3D, 3E and 3F) are accessed. I haven't looked real hard at the data being put in them but the very fact that they're all accessed means that the AY-3-8912 should be present. This MAY account for the few missing sounds. I don't have one of these to try out. Mark, do you? David Fish | "We want...Information. INFORMATION Melrose, MA USA | You won't get it! dfish@nyx.cs.du.edu | By hook or by crook we will" dfish | _The Prisoner_ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 17:47:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 17:47:00 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 2 May 97 17:45 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970502174236.33b75598@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist From: Zonn Subject: Re: Zektor snd bd component differences and missing snds Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist At 08:12 PM 5/2/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Folks, > > After comparing the schematics for both the Eliminator Sound board >(800-3174) and the Zektor Sound board (800-3249) I've found a few >components which have different values for each board, these are listed >below. The Eliminator snd bd has the reference designations silkscreened >on the board so locating the components is fairly easy. > >Ref Des ELIMINATOR ZEKTOR >R5 10K 4.7K >R9 33K 12K >R71 270K 100K >R79 2 MEG unused >R122 220K 390K >R132 220K 100K >C9 0.01uF 0.0047uF >C46 0.022uF 0.047uF > > Now about the missing sounds. The disassembly shows that all four >registers on the board (3C, 3D, 3E and 3F) are accessed. I haven't >looked real hard at the data being put in them but the very fact that >they're all accessed means that the AY-3-8912 should be present. This >MAY account for the few missing sounds. I don't have one of these to >try out. Mark, do you? David your the man! I've been desperatly asking around (amongnst my local friends) for an Eliminator schematic so I could do just what you did! Thanks! -Zonn BTW: I have a couple of Space Fury audio boards here, (there not mine). The one labeled "Space Fury" has the installed AY-3-8912, and the one labeled "Battle Star" does not. The owner claims the "Space Fury" board sounds better. Fuller sounds. Do you (or anyone) know if Space Fury accesses the AY-3-8912? From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 17:47:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 17:47:22 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 2 May 97 17:46 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970502174305.2d57fea6@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist From: Zonn Subject: Re: multi-game proto board Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist At 05:02 PM 5/2/97 -0800, you wrote: >>So have you tried this? And all you get is the pincushion effect? No >>problem with filling the entire monitor with vectors? That would make life >>easier. Maybe the Sega Vector systems aren't using the full speed >>capabilities of the GO-8 monitors. That would be nice. > >I haven't tried it myself-- others have though and the "distortion" effect >was limited to an occasional miss-placed vector. You could probably drive >the deflection section a little harder, or more likely just live with it. >;-) Well given the limited amount of current available with the +/- 25v supply, how fast you can "charge" (for lack of better word) up the inductor is just a matter of physics. The inductors act like a resistor while it's in a state change. And given a fixed resistance (or in the case of the inductor, reactance) value, the 25 volt power supply limit, limits the maximum current available. For a stronger magnetic effect on the beam you need more current through your yoke. Driving it stronger will just cause it hit maximum speed a little faster. It won't allow you to move the beam any faster than the maximum 25 volts will allow. You end up with a current curve (if graphically mapped) that looks like a clipped sawtooth wave. That harder you drive it, the steeper to slope of the sawtooth, but it's still going to clip at the same place. (This description is not directed towards you, Clay, but to others that may be following this thread.) But from your following explanation it might not be as big a deal as I thought it was... >The only "gotcha" as far as the slew rate is concerned when using it with a >Wells Gardner monitor is parallel loads on the counters to the DACs. >(Those can make a big deflection fast when the new position is latched in.) >Otherwise, the max vector slew rate looks to be something the WG monitors >can handle OK. So it sounds like the real problem is how fast they move to a new screen position to start a new vector. That explains the misplaced vectors. So you can live with misplaced vectors, or crank up the voltage on the WG, or (this might be the hardest, I guess) find yourself a GO-8 monitor (and uh, fix it since you know it's going to be broken). -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 17:51:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 17:51:43 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 2 May 97 17:50 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970502174726.33b777fc@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist From: Zonn Subject: Re: parts cost Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist At 01:48 PM 5/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >On May 2, 11:04am, Al Kossow wrote: >> Subject: parts cost >> >> Clay said: >> >> "I'm >> going to concentrate on the multi-game hardware/software at this pont, so >> this sound stuff is "up for grabs" as far as I'm concerned. ;-) Whoever >> wants to tackle it can use whatever they want... (Just remember to keep >> the cost down!)" >> >> Considering that the bare board is probably going to be $200, spending >> $100 on parts doesn't seem out of line. > >I realize that this is an exercise in testing your technological limits in >being able to build this, and I realize everyone loves multigames when they >work, but I would think it would be cheaper just to buy the individual sound >boards for each game. > >For example, next week I'll be selling these boards at the following prices: > >Sound boards >------------ >Eliminator/Zektor $20 >Space Fury $25 >Universal Sound board $30 >Speechboards $10 > >So you see, you can get every sound board for every Sega XY game for $85. >I'll even sell them CHEAPER if your willing to take broken ones and fix them >yourself! I'd just like to say that Mark could have made a lot of money off these boards, but decided in advance not to. Need more be said? Mark you a gentleman and a scholar! Thanks! -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri May 2 19:04:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 2 May 1997 19:04:16 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <336AB88D.1E36@mail.idt.net> Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 21:01:17 -0700 From: mayday19 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Space Fury Cocktail References: <2.2.16.19970502174726.33b777fc@pop3.concentric.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Hey all, I am just getting to the SEGA stuff, it certainly seems to be all the rage right now. I figured I need to try something new since I have not messed around with the SEGA stuff much... I found a guy who has 3 space Furys, 1 UR and 2 CTs. he said 1 of the CTs has only 500 plays on it. I am just curious, but are these all that uncommon? I know that other than ST:SOS there are a lot of Space Furys out there, but I have never heard of a CT. I should be picking them up next weekend along with a pile of other vector games, this guy said he had a 4-p eliminator that he might have parted out, so I hope I can dig up the parts for it whle I am there! I also have a set of Eliminator boards I am picking up tomorrow, could any of you guys tell me what the labeling is for the UR, CT, and 4p versions so I can know what kind of set I have here? Thanks, Jeff From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat May 3 04:48:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 3 May 1997 04:47:57 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 07:44:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199705031144.HAA15559@mailrelay.tiac.net> X-Sender: fishd@pop.tiac.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist From: fishd Subject: Re: Zektor snd bd component differences and missing snds Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist >BTW: I have a couple of Space Fury audio boards here, (there not mine). The >one labeled "Space Fury" has the installed AY-3-8912, and the one labeled >"Battle Star" does not. The owner claims the "Space Fury" board sounds >better. Fuller sounds. Do you (or anyone) know if Space Fury accesses the >AY-3-8912? > There are no accesses to the two register locations (3C & 3D) for the sound chip in the Space Fury code, only the regular parallel latches at 3E and 3F. I would be skeptical of his claim. David Fish | "We want...Information. INFORMATION Melrose, MA USA | You won't get it! dfish | By hook or by crook we will" dfish | _The Prisoner_ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat May 3 07:29:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 3 May 1997 07:25:20 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 07:25:17 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: another card idea Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist I think i've figured out a way to get everything to fit into a 6 slot cage. Using PLCC processors, I think you could fit everything that was on the CPU EPROM and Speech boards onto one card that would replace the CPU board. That way, you would have a CPU, XY timing, XY control and the three sound boards, and could bank switch the speech board code. Analog mux the four sound sources together on the new CPU board, and bring out three decoded card selects onto the backplane onto unused pins to select which sound board to use. It looks like there is a single point on all the sound cards which you could use for board select (u35-6 on space fury, u59-8 on the universal, and u40-8 on eliminator) Do any of the games use the Votrax or the timer stuff shown on the 800-0183 version in the Space Fury manual? It looks like none of that circuitry is even stuffed on the other variants (I also see there are a bunch more I/O addresses that I need to document) ..oh, and it would be cool if we could have a serial interface and RAM, and a 50 pin connector to get to the adr and data bus and... Maybe we don't need a DSP after all :-) From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat May 3 09:02:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 3 May 1997 08:58:45 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199705031555.LAA26906@mailrelay.tiac.net> X-Sender: fishd@pop.tiac.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist From: fishd Subject: Zektor's spoken phrases Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Hi guys, Something to whet your appetite. Here's all the phrases that are spoken by Zektor. Voices are both male and female. The male voice sounds like it's the same person who did Space Fury. 0 = no phrase 1 = "So, you've come to take Ascella back" (M) 2 = "I rule Faltar now" (M) 3 = "You'll have to fight for it" (M) 4 = "Centaurus is my world now" (M) 5 = "Sooo... We meet again creature" (M) 6 = "Prepare for battle" (M) 7 = "Warriors needed to defeat alien robots" (F) 8 = "Approaching" (F) 9 = "defense ring" (F) A = "the city" (F) B = "One" (F) C = "Two" (F) D = "Three" (F) E = "Ahhh... Another warrior attempting to regain Baitos" F = "You will not take it from me" (F) 10 = "I have conquered Eridonus" (F) 11 = "Once Deneballa was yours" (F) 12 = "Graffas belongs to me" (F) 13 = "I will never give it back" (F) 14 = no phrase David Fish | "We want...Information. INFORMATION Melrose, MA USA | You won't get it! dfish | By hook or by crook we will" dfish | _The Prisoner_ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat May 3 09:29:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 3 May 1997 09:26:07 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 09:26:04 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: update to hw doc Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist I've just updated the sega hw doc on spies with the zektor phrases, and corrected the port 0xfc info that dave sent out. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun May 4 18:53:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 4 May 1997 18:53:41 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 21:49:24 -0400 (EDT) From: David Shuman To: vectorlist Subject: Re: multi-game proto board In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19970502150339.21bfd02c@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist On Fri, 2 May 1997, Zonn wrote: > There is just one thing though. The difference between the Sega monitors > and WG is more than just level shifting. The Sega monitor is capable of a > faster vector sweep rate. Right. > The WG will not be able to keep up with Sega > vector generator. Right again. But it *almost* can, and the results of using just the level converter alone are quite acceptable (to me, at least)-- just the occasional stray vector. > I haven't tried this but my guess is that in order to see > a non-distorted picture, your going to end up with a shrunkin image centered > on the WG. I *have* tried this, and can confirm that Zonn's guess is correct. But the level at which the slew-rate problem disappears makes the screen annoyingly small--about half-size. > The fix for a WG would be a little involved, but not a lot. I would suggest > parallelled transistors to handle the higher wattages... I've been meaning to try this... it would be great if the upgrade would work using a bunch of 3716's and 3792's. > But mostly it would be changing values here and there to handle > the higher +/- 50 volts. I'm sure there's some sort of arrangement that would allow you to jack up the current without changing the working voltage (somehow I keep thinking of a Darlington arrangement but my analog knowlege is VERY rusty; gonna have to look it up). --Dave-- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon May 5 06:43:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 5 May 1997 06:42:54 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 05 May 1997 09:30 EDT To: vectorlist From: "Gregg Woodcock" Subject: Re: multi-game proto board Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist In message "Re: multi-game proto board", you write: >So you can live with misplaced vectors, or crank up the voltage on the WG, >or (this might be the hardest, I guess) find yourself a GO-8 monitor (and >uh, fix it since you know it's going to be broken). Just for everybody's information; I have at least 2 of the GO-8 monitors that I'd be willing to sell or trade for other vector stuff. I would also loan them to anybody willing to pay the shipping if it will help any of the projects being worked on. -- THANX...Gregg day 214.684.7380 night UNLIST/PUBL TEXAS NOT CANADA! woodcock or bn202@cleveland.freenet.edu *CLASSIC VIDEOGAME COLLECTOR BUY/SELL/TRADE NON-COMPUTER (ARCADE/HOME)* "If you quote me on this I'll have to deny it; I won't remember because I have such a bad memory. Not only that, but my memory is *terrible*." From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon May 5 06:51:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 5 May 1997 06:51:22 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Message-Id: <9705051346.AA28856 > Subject: Re: multi-game proto board To: vectorlist Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 09:46:05 -0400 (EDT) Cc: woodcock In-Reply-To: from "Gregg Woodcock" at May 5, 97 09:30:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 711 Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist > Just for everybody's information; I have at least 2 of the GO-8 > monitors that I'd be willing to sell or trade for other vector stuff. > I would also loan them to anybody willing to pay the shipping if it > will help any of the projects being worked on. Gregg, What are you looking for (cash or other) that you want for one of the G0-8's? Cash is best for me, as I'm a packrat with my 'good stuff'... :-) John +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | John W. Linville To Be, Rather Than To Seem. | | linvjw http://www4.ncsu.edu/eos/users/j/jwlinvi/www | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon May 5 07:13:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 5 May 1997 07:13:51 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199705051417.KAA14328 > Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 09:09:32 -0500 From: Mark Jenison In-Reply-To: fishd "Zektor snd bd component differences and missing snds" (May 2, 8:12pm) References: <199705030021.UAA28554 > X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Zektor snd bd component differences and missing snds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist On May 2, 8:12pm, fishd wrote: > Subject: Zektor snd bd component differences and missing snds > Hi Folks, > > After comparing the schematics for both the Eliminator Sound board > (800-3174) and the Zektor Sound board (800-3249) I've found a few > components which have different values for each board, these are listed > below. The Eliminator snd bd has the reference designations silkscreened > on the board so locating the components is fairly easy. > > Ref Des ELIMINATOR ZEKTOR > R5 10K 4.7K > R9 33K 12K > R71 270K 100K > R79 2 MEG unused > R122 220K 390K > R132 220K 100K > C9 0.01uF 0.0047uF > C46 0.022uF 0.047uF > > Now about the missing sounds. The disassembly shows that all four > registers on the board (3C, 3D, 3E and 3F) are accessed. I haven't > looked real hard at the data being put in them but the very fact that > they're all accessed means that the AY-3-8912 should be present. This > MAY account for the few missing sounds. I don't have one of these to > try out. Mark, do you? David, You found out exactly what I found out this weekend. While Eliminator works fine without the AY-3-8912, I ran across one of my boards that actually had one of these chips in it and it dawned on me...does Zektor need this?? Sure enough, I populated by the Eliminator sound board in my Zektor with this chip and the missing sounds were now present! The mystery is solved! Now I've got to update my FAQ again :-( ________________ ______ ___ _____ __ / __/ / / / |/ / / |/ //|/|/|_______________ Mark Jenison / __/ /_/ / / / | // | / |__ __/ _ /__ \ jenison /___/___/_/_//_/_/_/|_//__|/__| / / / // / / Sega XY FAQ author /_/|_| /_/ /____/_/|_| ________________ The One and Only 4-player vector game From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon May 5 07:17:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 5 May 1997 07:17:42 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199705051421.KAA14706 > Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 09:13:25 -0500 From: Mark Jenison In-Reply-To: Zonn "Re: Zektor snd bd component differences and missing snds" (May 2, 5:45pm) References: <199705030052.UAA29335 > X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Zektor snd bd component differences and missing snds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist On May 2, 5:45pm, Zonn wrote: > Subject: Re: Zektor snd bd component differences and missing snds > At 08:12 PM 5/2/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Hi Folks, > > > > After comparing the schematics for both the Eliminator Sound board > >(800-3174) and the Zektor Sound board (800-3249) I've found a few > >components which have different values for each board, these are listed > >below. The Eliminator snd bd has the reference designations silkscreened > >on the board so locating the components is fairly easy. > > > >Ref Des ELIMINATOR ZEKTOR > >R5 10K 4.7K > >R9 33K 12K > >R71 270K 100K > >R79 2 MEG unused > >R122 220K 390K > >R132 220K 100K > >C9 0.01uF 0.0047uF > >C46 0.022uF 0.047uF > > > > Now about the missing sounds. The disassembly shows that all four > >registers on the board (3C, 3D, 3E and 3F) are accessed. I haven't > >looked real hard at the data being put in them but the very fact that > >they're all accessed means that the AY-3-8912 should be present. This > >MAY account for the few missing sounds. I don't have one of these to > >try out. Mark, do you? > > David your the man! I've been desperatly asking around (amongnst my local > friends) for an Eliminator schematic so I could do just what you did! > > Thanks! > > -Zonn > > BTW: I have a couple of Space Fury audio boards here, (there not mine). The > one labeled "Space Fury" has the installed AY-3-8912, and the one labeled > "Battle Star" does not. The owner claims the "Space Fury" board sounds > better. Fuller sounds. Do you (or anyone) know if Space Fury accesses the > AY-3-8912? Space Fury doesn't need the AY-3-8912 for any of it's sounds, but I've never seen a board actually LABELED "Space Fury", I've only seen "Battle Star". Of course, there is a "Meatball" and "Eliminator" sound boards which are the same that I've seen, but I don't think we should start searching for a Sega XY game called "Meatball" just yet ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon May 5 07:22:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 5 May 1997 07:22:48 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Fish, David" To: "vectorlist > Subject: RE: Zektor snd bd component differences and missing snds Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:18:48 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist > >>While Eliminator works fine without the AY-3-8912, I ran across one of my >>boards that actually had one of these chips in it and it dawned on me...does >>Zektor need this?? > >>Sure enough, I populated by the Eliminator sound board in my Zektor with >>this >>chip and the missing sounds were now present! The mystery is solved! Great. Now the big question, where do we get these old GI AY-3-8912's ? The 8910's are fairly common but not the 12's. Any other boards out there use them? Dave > > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon May 5 07:47:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 5 May 1997 07:47:36 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199705051451.KAA17969 > Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 09:43:10 -0500 From: Mark Jenison In-Reply-To: mayday19 "Space Fury Cocktail" (May 2, 9:01pm) References: <2.2.16.19970502174726.33b777fc@pop3.concentric.net> <199705030211.WAA01389 > X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Space Fury Cocktail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist On May 2, 9:01pm, mayday19 wrote: > Subject: Space Fury Cocktail > Hey all, > > I am just getting to the SEGA stuff, it certainly seems to be all the > rage right now. I figured I need to try something new since I have not > messed around with the SEGA stuff much... So you want to try out Sega XY stuff? You are a glutton for punishment! ;-) > I found a guy who has 3 space Furys, 1 UR and 2 CTs. he said 1 of the > CTs has only 500 plays on it. I am just curious, but are these all that > uncommon? I know that other than ST:SOS there are a lot of Space Furys > out there, but I have never heard of a CT. The cocktail Sega XY games are not too very common, so definitely grab these. I'd love to find out more about their monitors, since I know the chassis is modified so it can fit in a cocktail cabinet. > I should be picking them up > next weekend along with a pile of other vector games, this guy said he > had a 4-p eliminator that he might have parted out, so I hope I can dig > up the parts for it whle I am there! Ooo! Ooo! I'd be interested in the 4-player Eliminator parts! I'm always looking for a yellow and red control panel that's in better condition than mine! Also, see if he has the cool high impact promotional canopy for the game! I'd love to get one of these! I'd be happy with just a marquee! > I also have a set of Eliminator boards I am picking up tomorrow, could > any of you guys tell me what the labeling is for the UR, CT, and 4p > versions so I can know what kind of set I have here? If you look at the EPROM board, here's what you should see: EPROM range Game --------------------- 1200 1212 Eliminator cocktail 1333 1345 Eliminator upright 1347 1360 Eliminator 4-player Good luck on your acquisitions! More than likely you'll have problems with these, so let me know if you need any help (repair, boards, tips, FAQ...) ________________ ______ ___ _____ __ / __/ / / / |/ / / |/ //|/|/|_______________ Mark Jenison / __/ /_/ / / / | // | / |__ __/ _ /__ \ jenison /___/___/_/_//_/_/_/|_//__|/__| / / / // / / Sega XY FAQ author /_/|_| /_/ /____/_/|_| ________________ The One and Only 4-player vector game From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon May 5 10:00:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 5 May 1997 10:00:39 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 5 May 97 09:59 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970505095613.0fcfac98@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist From: Zonn Subject: Re: multi-game proto board Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist At 09:49 PM 5/4/97 -0400, David wrote: > Fri, 2 May 1997, Zonn wrote: > >> But mostly it would be changing values here and there to handle >> the higher +/- 50 volts. > >I'm sure there's some sort of arrangement that would allow you to jack up >the current without changing the working voltage (somehow I keep thinking >of a Darlington arrangement but my analog knowlege is VERY rusty; gonna >have to look it up). No, sorry Dave, it doesn't work that way (too bad huh?). In order for you to get more current through the Yoke you must either raise the voltages across the windings, or lower the inductance of the yoke. So unless you're up for re-winding you're yoke, you're going to have to increase the voltages. A darlington is used where more current gain is needed. The amount of current a transistor passes, is proportional to the amount of current you pump into it. And this is dependent upon the gain of the transistor. So if your using something that puts out only small amounts of current (like an op amp) and you want to use it to control a large amount of current, you can use a darlington arrangement to amplify the meager currents of the op amp, to the high currents needing controlling. Unfortunately those currents are still controlled b