From phkahler@Oakland.edu Mon Nov 1 08:31:28 1999 Received: from saturn4.acs.oakland.edu (saturn4.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.6.21]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id IAA07635 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 08:31:27 -0600 (CST) Received: (from phkahler@localhost) by saturn4.acs.oakland.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA19943 for vectorlist ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:31:59 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199911011431.JAA19943@saturn4.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Space Wars Demo To: vectorlist Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:31:59 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95AA3 > from "jeff hendrix" at Oct 29, 99 01:45:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN > Yea, these games require different hardware, I was planning on writing a > star castle from scratch to play on tempest hardware. Better yet, port Omega Race to Tempest hardware. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From mendel@matranortel.nl Mon Nov 1 09:00:28 1999 Received: from smtp.matra.nl ([195.18.69.66]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id JAA10570 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:00:25 -0600 (CST) Received: by smtp.matra.nl(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.4 (830.2 3-23-1999)) id C125681C.0052DF9A ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:05:11 +0100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: MATRA EXITEL/NL@INTERNET From: "Mendel Pearl" To: vectorlist Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:03:43 +0100 Subject: Vector Hardware Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Hi there, Which Atari Vector games run on the same hardware? Or are there really 13 different boards for all games? Is there a way to run game X on hardware from game Y? Kind Regards From phkahler@Oakland.edu Mon Nov 1 09:34:13 1999 Received: from saturn4.acs.oakland.edu (saturn4.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.6.21]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id JAA14016 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:34:12 -0600 (CST) Received: (from phkahler@localhost) by saturn4.acs.oakland.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29090 for vectorlist ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:34:43 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199911011534.KAA29090@saturn4.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Gravity Calculation To: vectorlist Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:34:43 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95A90 > from "jeff hendrix" at Oct 27, 99 03:09:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN There is a faster way... > // calculate distance from the sun > xLen = sunPos.x - objPos.x; > yLen = sunPos.y - objPos.y; > lengthsqr = (xLen * xLen) + (yLen * yLen); > length = sqrt(lengthsqr); > // calculate unit vector > unitX = xLen / length; > unitY = yLen / length; > // gravity is inverse r squared > unitX = unitX/lengthsqr; > unitY = unitY/lengthsqr; > // update object speed > speed.x += unitX; > speed.y += unitY; Compute: D = ((xLen * xLen) + (yLen * yLen)) ^ -1.5 dx = xLen * D dy = yLen * D speed.x += dx speed.y += dy The -1.5 exponent seems strange, but you'll note that there is no need to compute the unit vector this way. Whatever iterative method you use for square root may apply to this as well. I presented this to the Xpilot team several years back, and they got a good speed boost from it - that game can have a LOT of gravity sources. BTW, the "obvious" way to extend to 3D works, as that is where it came from (take the gradient of the gravitational potential field (-1/r) in cartesian coordinates). Hope it helps. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From sozdemir Mon Nov 1 09:38:16 1999 Received: from ckmso1.proxy.att.com (ckmso1.att.com [12.20.58.69]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id JAA14624 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:38:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from mo3980r1.ems.att.com ([135.38.12.14]) by ckmso1.proxy.att.com (AT&T IPNS/MSO-2.2) with ESMTP id KAA24273 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:37:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mo3980bh1.ems.att.com by mo3980r1.ems.att.com (8.8.8+Sun/ATTEMS-1.4.1 sol2) id KAA14408; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:34:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by mo3980bh1.ems.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:37:24 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steven S, GOVMK" To: vectorlist Subject: RE: Space Wars Demo Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:37:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN G'day Ed and folks, A couple years back I captured the entire Cinematronics schematic in Viewlogic with the intent of putting it on a Xilinx FPGA. This was the "Cinematronics on a Chip" project. I thoroughly reviewed the schematic, however I never reached the phase where I tested it in simulation. Al Kossow has kindly offered to put these FPGA files on spies, but I've never gotten around to forwarding them to him. If someone's interested in moving this project forward, I'll get the files to Al ASAP. Steve Ozdemir sozdemir ps - Capturing the schematic is about 50% of the work in a project like this. -----Original Message----- From: Ed Henciak [mailto:eddie ] Sent: Friday, October 29, 1999 12:43 PM To: vectorlist Subject: RE: Space Wars Demo > > Don't these games require different hardware? or can you port > many of these games to different systems? This could be done using synthesizable CPU cores for FPGAs (or if someone with deep pockets want to make a 'Vectorcade ASIC'....yeah right :) ! ) Current, cheaper FPGAs are really nice for the Cinematronics CPU ;) .... Ed From ClayC Mon Nov 1 09:49:19 1999 Received: from suprahwy.supra.com (suprahwy.supra.com [205.229.114.11]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id JAA16703 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:49:18 -0600 (CST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by suprahwy.supra.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA08314 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:49:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from supra.com(dogbert.supra.com 10.11.0.21) by suprahwy.supra.com via smap (V2.0) from ; id xma008312; Mon, 1 Nov 99 07:49:11 -0800 Received: from vanmail3.van.diamondmm.com by dogbert.supra.com id aa15636; 1 Nov 99 7:49 PST Received: by vanmail3.van.diamondmm.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:49:08 -0800 Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist '" Subject: RE: Space Wars Demo Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:49:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Gravitar and Space Duel have some annoying hardware differences that would be a problem running Gravitar on Space Duel hardware. The other way around is probably OK though. You could populate a Space Duel with the necessary components, but that's beyond most people's ability to do safely. -Clay > ---------- > From: Christopher X. Candreva[SMTP:chris ] > Reply To: vectorlist > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 8:59 AM > To: vectorlist > Subject: Re: Space Wars Demo > > On Fri, 29 Oct 1999, Jeff Bovee wrote: > > > Couldn't we get some sort of cooperation between parties here, Jeff > provides > > the software, Clay makes the hardware and we all get to benefitt from > two > > games in one, maybe three or four with variations? > > With Gravitar thrown in (should be playable with a SD control pannel, some > software tweaking ?) Black Widow would be nice too, though the CP might be > a > problem. > > -Chris > > ========================================================== > Chris Candreva -- chris -- (914) 967-7816 > WestNet Internet Services of Westchester > http://www.westnet.com/ > From mowerman Mon Nov 1 12:11:38 1999 Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id MAA09298 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:11:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from erols.com (207-172-109-103.s103.tnt1.war.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.109.103]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA16478 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:11:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <381DD619.AA9259D7 > Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 13:04:09 -0500 From: Kev X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Space Wars Demo References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Clay Cowgill wrote: > You could populate a Space Duel with the necessary > components, but that's beyond most people's ability to do safely. awh come on, I've got my soldering torch ready & itchin! -- Kev Mowerman >>REMOVE THE ? to REPLY Looking for Pac-Man related hacks & Video Game Coin Op Page -> http://www.erols.com/mowerman From ClayC Mon Nov 1 13:31:25 1999 Received: from suprahwy.supra.com (suprahwy.supra.com [205.229.114.11]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id NAA18518 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:31:15 -0600 (CST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by suprahwy.supra.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA10901 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:31:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from supra.com(dogbert.supra.com 10.11.0.21) by suprahwy.supra.com via smap (V2.0) from ; id xma010893; Mon, 1 Nov 99 11:30:48 -0800 Received: from vanmail3.van.diamondmm.com by dogbert.supra.com id aa29332; 1 Nov 99 11:30 PST Received: by vanmail3.van.diamondmm.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:30:46 -0800 Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist '" Subject: RE: Space Wars Demo Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:30:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN > 1) 2 cartridges for each game. One with the game code and the other for > the > vector ROMs > True, or a cartridge for program/special functions, and a board with ROM sockets for VROMs for each game... > 2) I can build a universal vector ROM that contains things that would be > used by most games (i.e.- characters), and all cartridge games would use > that ROM. This would mean that all other shapes would have to be copied > to, > or built in, vector RAM. (that's how I'm doing space wars, the ship shapes > are in normal program ROM space) > I did about the same thing for Vector Breakout-- just used the "stock" Tempest ROM for characters a few shapes and then loaded VRAM from program code. > 3) Run a cable from the VROM socket to the cartridge so the vector > generator > would be accessing the vector ROMs on the cartridge. (this might not work > because of delay) > This is probably OK, but shielding and crosstalk on a ribbon cable of any length can be a problem without special wiring. Not my first choice... > 4) Have a static RAM chip in the daughter card and copy the appropriate > data > down when the game is selected. There's a couple ways to do this, but the > easiest would be for each game to copy the data down during > initialization. > This option also might be cool because it would allow shapes to be altered > in what was previously only static data. > I think this is the best way. I don't know Space Duel hardware super-well though-- is there a 74LS245 or something similar on the VROM databus (so it's bidirectional). I *think* so 'cause the VRAM is in the same address decoder range. The menu system would just load the VROM image into the "shadow" VROM space prior to jumping to the game program code. I also like that idea 'cause I can stick a 32K*8 SRAM there and we can add a bank-selection register somewhere in memory. Then, since the VGGO is under program control we can bank-switch the shadow VROM before every redraw to achieve something like character-set animation without much of any CPU use... -Clay From jhendrix Mon Nov 1 15:18:52 1999 Received: from smtpnew.quark.com (IDENT:root [206.195.78.16]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id PAA04721 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:18:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from denver.quark.com (denver.quark.com [206.195.71.192]) by smtpnew.quark.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07803 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:25:16 -0700 Received: by denver.quark.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:17:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95AAB > From: jeff hendrix To: "'vectorlist '" Subject: vector list Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:17:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN How does somebody subscribe to this list? Someone is asking me for help and he says that Majordomo isn't reporting back any vector list (I also verified this). or Al, if you want to just add him his email is Richard Brandt [rikbrandt ] -jeff From eglanz Mon Nov 1 15:28:50 1999 Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id PAA06150 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:28:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from qbert (mawi144-238.dsl.tds.net [204.71.144.238]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA26095 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:28:48 -0600 (CST) From: "Eric Glanz" To: Subject: RE: Space Wars Demo Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:28:58 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <291099302.47345@209.192.137.154> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN -----Original Message----- From: owner-vectorlist [mailto:owner-vectorlist ]On Behalf Of nelsonjjjj Sent: Friday, October 29, 1999 3:09 PM To: vectorlist Subject: RE: Space Wars Demo >star castle.. ..on Tempest hardware That's totally cool. Can we run games like say Battlezone on Star Wars Hardware with recoding? -James ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! From jess Mon Nov 1 15:34:45 1999 Received: from roper.uwyo.edu (pmdf@roper.uwyo.edu [129.72.10.8]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id PAA07046 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:34:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from asuwlink.uwyo.edu (asuwlink.uwyo.edu [129.72.60.2]) by ROPER.UWYO.EDU (PMDF V5.2-32 #33749) with ESMTP id <0FKJ00A6TFT5WM@ROPER.UWYO.EDU> for vectorlist ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:31:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from magenta.com (ras8715.uwyo.edu [129.72.87.15]) by asuwlink.uwyo.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21505 for ; Mon, 01 Nov 1999 14:31:52 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 14:32:29 -0700 From: Jess Askey Subject: Re: vector list To: vectorlist Message-id: <381E06ED.C7911B90 > Organization: Random and Dispersed MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95AAB > Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN there is a great page on info at lists.cc.utexas.edu The big difference between Majordomo on that server is that when you mail requests or commands, they go to listproc jeff hendrix wrote: > > How does somebody subscribe to this list? > Someone is asking me for help and he says that Majordomo isn't reporting > back any vector list (I also verified this). > > or Al, if you want to just add him his email is > Richard Brandt [rikbrandt ] > > -jeff From paull Mon Nov 1 15:39:13 1999 Received: from smtp2.us.dell.com (smtp2.us.dell.com [143.166.82.242]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id PAA07587 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:39:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from buckwheat-f0.us.dell.com (buckwheat-f0.us.dell.com [143.166.14.6]) by smtp2.us.dell.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA12926 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:39:11 -0600 (CST) Received: by buckwheat-f0.us.dell.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA01074; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:39:09 -0600 From: paull (Paul_Labuda) Message-Id: <199911012139.PAA01074 > Subject: Re: vector list To: vectorlist Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:39:09 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95AAB > from "jeff hendrix" at Nov 1, 99 02:17:41 pm Reply-To: vectorlist X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Jeff, Al doesn't maintain the list any longer. Joe Welser and I do. Anyway, to subscribe to the list, send a message with these two lines to 'listproc ' : subscribe vectorlist FirstName LastName -- That's it! - Paul Labuda jeff hendrix writes: > >How does somebody subscribe to this list? >Someone is asking me for help and he says that Majordomo isn't reporting >back any vector list (I also verified this). > >or Al, if you want to just add him his email is >Richard Brandt [rikbrandt ] > >-jeff > > From cbright Mon Nov 1 15:39:21 1999 Received: from router.dmz.intouchsurvey.com (gate.intouchsurvey.com [206.191.25.226]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id PAA07487 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:38:48 -0600 (CST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by router.dmz.intouchsurvey.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA25779 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 21:38:37 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: router.dmz.intouchsurvey.com: mail set sender to using -f Received: from unknown(172.16.0.30) by router.dmz.intouchsurvey.com via smap (V2.0) id xma025777; Mon, 1 Nov 99 21:38:29 GMT Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:39:49 -0500 Message-ID: <01BF2487.B6D12D10.cbright > From: Christopher Bright To: "'vectorlist '" Subject: RE: vector list Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:39:49 -0500 Organization: In-Touch Survey Systems X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 16 TEXT Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN -----Original Message----- From: jeff hendrix [SMTP:jhendrix ] Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 4:18 PM To: 'vectorlist ' Subject: vector list How does somebody subscribe to this list? http://www.spies.com/arcade/vectorlist/index.html Go there and follow the instructions... Later, Chris Bright From aek Mon Nov 1 15:47:32 1999 Received: from spies.com (root [198.180.182.10]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id PAA08959 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:47:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (430 bytes) by spies.com via send-mail with P:stdio/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) (ident using unix) id for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:47:37 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #18 built 1998-Oct-15) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:47:37 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: RE: Space Wars Demo Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN "That's totally cool. Can we run games like say Battlezone on Star Wars Hardware with recoding? " You could, but you'd end up with a Bradley Fighting Vehicle trainer :-) Jeff would know for shure.. Is the control yoke on "Army Battlezone" the same as the one used on Star Wars? From Joe.Magiera Mon Nov 1 15:51:34 1999 Received: from portal2.ameritech.com (portal2.ameritech.com [144.160.5.70]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id PAA09608 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:51:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from mi54150exch01c.ameritech.com (mi54150exch01c.nwoc.mi.ameritech.com) by portal2.ameritech.com with SMTP id QAA17019 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:51:32 -0500 Received: by mi54150exch01c.nwoc.mi.ameritech.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:52:20 -0500 Message-Id: From: "Magiera, Joe (AIT)" To: "'vector list'" Subject: Atari Vertical Major Havoc question Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:57:30 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Since the only dedicated vertical orientation monitor Atari X/Y games are Tempest and Quantum, from a game play perspective, how does Major Havoc play in the Tempest conversions? Is it noticeably different than playing it horizontal (dedicated & Space Duel conversions)? Joe From jhendrix Mon Nov 1 15:56:56 1999 Received: from smtpnew.quark.com (IDENT:root [206.195.78.16]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id PAA10753 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:56:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from denver.quark.com (denver.quark.com [206.195.71.192]) by smtpnew.quark.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09490 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:03:27 -0700 Received: by denver.quark.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:55:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95AAF > From: jeff hendrix To: "'vectorlist '" Subject: RE: Atari Vertical Major Havoc question Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:55:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN The monitor is rotated as part of the tempest conversion. -jeff -----Original Message----- From: Magiera, Joe (AIT) [mailto:Joe.Magiera ] Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 2:58 PM To: 'vector list' Subject: Atari Vertical Major Havoc question Since the only dedicated vertical orientation monitor Atari X/Y games are Tempest and Quantum, from a game play perspective, how does Major Havoc play in the Tempest conversions? Is it noticeably different than playing it horizontal (dedicated & Space Duel conversions)? Joe From omar Mon Nov 1 16:02:22 1999 Received: from TechSource.COM (techsrc.techsource.com [38.249.67.35]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id QAA11819 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:02:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from ntomar (nt-omar.techsource.com) by TechSource.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25591; Mon, 1 Nov 99 17:01:39 EST Message-Id: <017f01bf24b7$2536d9b0$8443f926 > From: "Omar Vega" To: References: Subject: Re: Atari Vertical Major Havoc question Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:19:20 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN No.... because you have to flip the monitor as part of the conversion :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Magiera, Joe (AIT) To: 'vector list' Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 4:57 PM Subject: Atari Vertical Major Havoc question > Since the only dedicated vertical orientation monitor Atari X/Y games are > Tempest and Quantum, from a game play perspective, how does Major Havoc play > in the Tempest conversions? Is it noticeably different than playing it > horizontal (dedicated & Space Duel conversions)? > > Joe > > From jhendrix Mon Nov 1 16:26:20 1999 Received: from smtpnew.quark.com (IDENT:root [206.195.78.16]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id QAA17336 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:26:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from denver.quark.com (denver.quark.com [206.195.71.192]) by smtpnew.quark.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10658 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:32:50 -0700 Received: by denver.quark.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:25:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95AB0 > From: jeff hendrix To: "'vectorlist '" Subject: RE: Gravity Calculation Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:25:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN This seems to work, but how do I implement ^-1.5 in assembly? -jeff -----Original Message----- There is a faster way... Compute: D = ((xLen * xLen) + (yLen * yLen)) ^ -1.5 dx = xLen * D dy = yLen * D speed.x += dx speed.y += dy The -1.5 exponent seems strange, but you'll note that there is no need to compute the unit vector this way. Whatever iterative method you use for square root may apply to this as well. I presented this to the Xpilot team several years back, and they got a good speed boost from it - that game can have a LOT of gravity sources. BTW, the "obvious" way to extend to 3D works, as that is where it came from (take the gradient of the gravitational potential field (-1/r) in cartesian coordinates). Hope it helps. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From Burbs1@concentric.net Mon Nov 1 16:31:30 1999 Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.118.93]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id QAA18392 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:31:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff.concentric.net [206.173.118.90]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.9.1a/(98/12/15 5.12)) id RAA25020; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:31:26 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Errors-To: Received: from concentric.net (ts034d19.par-nj.concentric.net [216.112.174.175]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id RAA12972; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:31:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <381E1408.957D010F@concentric.net> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:28:25 -0500 From: Mark E Davidson Reply-To: vectorlist X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vectorlist " Subject: G08 transistors Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Ok, Last week I said that my G08 puffed. It seems that the two transistors supplied in the Zanen cap kit (2n3716) shorted, smoking at least 3 resistors in the 100 to 180 ohm range on the deflection board and some of the add on boards. There may be more damage but that's a different issue. Could this line be fused to prevent new damage? ( just a thought I had) It has long been said that the original 2N6259 transistor is no longer available. This is untrue! I ordered and (received) 20 this weekend from my local supply house, But again that is not were Im going here. In looking for a cross reference, I found NTE388 to have higher specifications then the 2N6259. I put a table together comparing the two at http://www.basementarcade.com/arcade/library/vlist/ntevs2n6259.html Is it possible that a better part does exists in today's world? Would the NTE388 also be a better replacement for the 2n3716 in a WG6100? -=Mark=- From ClayC Mon Nov 1 16:42:23 1999 Received: from suprahwy.supra.com (suprahwy.supra.com [205.229.114.11]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id QAA20306 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:42:22 -0600 (CST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by suprahwy.supra.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13220 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:42:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from supra.com(dogbert.supra.com 10.11.0.21) by suprahwy.supra.com via smap (V2.0) from ; id xma013216; Mon, 1 Nov 99 14:42:00 -0800 Received: from vanmail3.van.diamondmm.com by dogbert.supra.com id aa11293; 1 Nov 99 14:42 PST Received: by vanmail3.van.diamondmm.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:41:58 -0800 Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist '" Subject: RE: Space Wars Demo Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:41:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN You know... The talk of gravity calculation and the cartridge-based Space Duel made me think... We could always stick another processor on the cartridge for a game-- just map it as R/W memory. (A little 50Mhz Scenix chip with some dual-port RAM would probably make a pretty good/cheap "mathbox". ...and would be good "copy protection" for commercial games to boot.) Probably not worth the extra effort required, but thought I'd mention it. :-) -Clay From zonn Mon Nov 1 16:45:47 1999 Received: from mail.propeller.com (IDENT:qmailr [204.216.217.130]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id QAA20781 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:45:41 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 29161 invoked from network); 1 Nov 1999 22:45:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO phd-zonn.propeller.com) (139.85.201.239) by ns1.propeller.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 1999 22:45:24 -0000 From: Zonn To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Gravity Calculation Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 14:47:06 -0800 Message-ID: References: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95AB0 > In-Reply-To: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95AB0 > X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu id QAA20796 Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:25:13 -0700 , you wrote: >This seems to work, but how do I implement ^-1.5 in assembly? > Might I suggest a lookup table? ;^) -Zonn From phkahler@Oakland.edu Mon Nov 1 16:49:37 1999 Received: from saturn4.acs.oakland.edu (saturn4.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.6.21]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id QAA21609 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:49:35 -0600 (CST) Received: (from phkahler@localhost) by saturn4.acs.oakland.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19741 for vectorlist ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:50:06 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199911012250.RAA19741@saturn4.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Gravity Calculation To: vectorlist Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:50:06 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95AB0 > from "jeff hendrix" at Nov 1, 99 03:25:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN > This seems to work, but how do I implement ^-1.5 in assembly? How were you going to implement ^.5 (i.e. sqrt) in assembly? Oh, I see at least with sqrt the inverse is easy to do, so you can tell if a "guess" is too high or low (just square the guess and compare to the original). With x^-1.5 its harder hmmm..... I'll have to think about that one. Perhaps some of the ideas for sqrt would apply. Remember they are both exponentials just a different exponent. (I negated it too so you don't need to divide). Ideas anyone? 256 entry table lookup ??? That may be enough resolution for game gravity. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From aek Mon Nov 1 16:52:02 1999 Received: from spies.com (root [198.180.182.10]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id QAA22033 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:52:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (724 bytes) by spies.com via send-mail with P:stdio/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) (ident using unix) id for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:52:05 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #18 built 1998-Oct-15) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:52:05 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: G08 transistors Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN "Would the NTE288 also be a better replacement for the 2N3716 in a WG6100" I'd suggest checking with a distributor for pricing on modern silicon T03 power transistors before paying NTE prices. Mot had some pretty impressive parts last time I looked. Proper failure analysis needs to be done on these displays. Speculation a few years ago included reverse junction breakdown due to inductive spikes from the yoke as well as overtemp from high deflection currents. re: 2n6259 AFAIK, these transistors are no longer in production from the people that orig made them (RCA?) From phkahler@Oakland.edu Mon Nov 1 16:56:13 1999 Received: from saturn4.acs.oakland.edu (saturn4.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.6.21]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id QAA22823 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:56:11 -0600 (CST) Received: (from phkahler@localhost) by saturn4.acs.oakland.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22538 for vectorlist ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:56:39 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199911012256.RAA22538@saturn4.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Space Wars Demo To: vectorlist Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:56:39 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Nov 1, 99 02:41:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN > You know... > > The talk of gravity calculation and the cartridge-based Space Duel made me > think... We could always stick another processor on the cartridge for a > game-- just map it as R/W memory. (A little 50Mhz Scenix chip with some > dual-port RAM would probably make a pretty good/cheap "mathbox". ...and > would be good "copy protection" for commercial games to boot.) Probably not > worth the extra effort required, but thought I'd mention it. :-) Lets just put an embeded PowerPC in there. We use the MPC555 here at work and it's got on chip RAM, Flash, floating point, and peripherals. And that other flavor of the chip seems to run MAME in that digital camera just fine. :-) :-) :-) it's way too much processor (and $$$). -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From anders.knudsen Mon Nov 1 17:04:32 1999 Received: from exchsrvr.BROADLOGIC.COM ([207.20.108.98]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id RAA24423 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:04:30 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <381E1CA5.84AB5FE5 > Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 16:05:09 -0700 From: Anders Knudsen MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Space Wars Demo References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Why another processor...he he...why not a DSP, yea, that's the ticket, a DSP, the math will really fly! ;-) -anders. Clay Cowgill wrote: > You know... > > The talk of gravity calculation and the cartridge-based Space Duel made me > think... We could always stick another processor on the cartridge for a > game-- just map it as R/W memory. (A little 50Mhz Scenix chip with some > dual-port RAM would probably make a pretty good/cheap "mathbox". ...and > would be good "copy protection" for commercial games to boot.) Probably not > worth the extra effort required, but thought I'd mention it. :-) > > -Clay From aek Mon Nov 1 17:13:37 1999 Received: from spies.com (root [198.180.182.10]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id RAA25960 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:13:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (414 bytes) by spies.com via send-mail with P:stdio/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) (ident using unix) id for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:13:41 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #18 built 1998-Oct-15) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:13:41 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Space Wars Demo Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN "Why another processor...he he...why not a DSP, yea, that's the ticket, a DSP, the math will really fly! ;-) " haven't checked on these lately. Surely the commodity chip vendors MUST have designed cheap single chip solutions by now with flash roms, haven't they? From aek Mon Nov 1 17:14:54 1999 Received: from spies.com (root [198.180.182.10]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id RAA26073 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:14:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (271 bytes) by spies.com via send-mail with P:stdio/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) (ident using unix) id for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:14:57 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #18 built 1998-Oct-15) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:14:57 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Space Wars Demo Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN "it's way too much processor (and $$$)." just curious, since I work in the other PPC world what are 555's going for now? From ClayC Mon Nov 1 17:22:53 1999 Received: from suprahwy.supra.com (suprahwy.supra.com [205.229.114.11]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id RAA27655 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:22:52 -0600 (CST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by suprahwy.supra.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA13597 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:22:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from supra.com(dogbert.supra.com 10.11.0.21) by suprahwy.supra.com via smap (V2.0) from ; id xma013595; Mon, 1 Nov 99 15:22:41 -0800 Received: from vanmail3.van.diamondmm.com by dogbert.supra.com id aa13611; 1 Nov 99 15:22 PST Received: by vanmail3.van.diamondmm.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:22:39 -0800 Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist '" Subject: RE: Space Wars Demo Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:22:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN > ---------- > From: Anders Knudsen[SMTP:anders.knudsen ] > > Why another processor...he he...why not a DSP, yea, that's the ticket, a > DSP, > the math will really fly! > Well, I *was* actually thinking of suggesting something like the TI '5409 DSP 'cause it has this cool little "Host Processor Interface" and built-in SRAM and all that... You can just hang it off a microprocessor as a peripheral for some DSP-boost. Then I got to thinking that it's probably $20 in small quantities and 100 TQFP so I scaled back to the little Scenix. Still though, an Atari AVG with all the VROM area available as VRAM and enough CPU to do fun complex math stuff (splines and curves and whatever) would be a pretty good general purpose vector game platform for quite a while. ;-) -Clay From dougj@hwcn.org Mon Nov 1 17:23:58 1999 Received: from james.hwcn.org (IDENT:jgJZ9livTCFb9uzEzAqd7jSzenIRpNvK@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id RAA27857 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:23:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (ae735@localhost) by james.hwcn.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA27360 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:23:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:23:39 -0500 (EST) From: Doug Jefferys To: vectorlist Subject: Re: G08 transistors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Al Kossow wrote: > > Proper failure analysis needs to be done on these displays. Speculation > a few years ago included reverse junction breakdown due to inductive > spikes from the yoke as well as overtemp from high deflection currents. FWIW, I've got a handful of dead deflection transistors if anyone has the expertise to examine 'em. I'm sure I can't be alone :) Later, Doug. -- dougj | @ | hwcn.org | From neil Mon Nov 1 17:24:16 1999 Received: from synthcom.com (beacon.synthcom.com [198.145.98.253]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id RAA27934 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:24:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from beacon.synthcom.com (beacon.synthcom.com [198.145.98.253] (may be forged)) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA79576 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:33:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from neil ) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:33:27 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Space Wars Demo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN > "Why another processor...he he...why not a DSP, yea, that's the ticket, a DSP, > the math will really fly! > " > haven't checked on these lately. Surely the commodity chip vendors MUST have > designed cheap single chip solutions by now with flash roms, haven't they? As an example (and though it's a wimpier design than we're expecting), Philips has put out an 89RD51, which has either 32K/64K Flash built on chip. They run to I think 22MHZ, and are pin compatible with 8051's. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Synthcom home : http://www.synthcom.com Synthcom Systems, Inc. C++ - Where you can make your privates public! ICQ # 29402898 Friends don't let newbie programmer friends do C++ From ClayC Mon Nov 1 17:30:55 1999 Received: from suprahwy.supra.com (suprahwy.supra.com [205.229.114.11]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id RAA29516 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:30:52 -0600 (CST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by suprahwy.supra.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA13645 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:30:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from supra.com(dogbert.supra.com 10.11.0.21) by suprahwy.supra.com via smap (V2.0) from ; id xma013641; Mon, 1 Nov 99 15:30:41 -0800 Received: from vanmail3.van.diamondmm.com by dogbert.supra.com id aa14131; 1 Nov 99 15:30 PST Received: by vanmail3.van.diamondmm.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:30:39 -0800 Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist '" Subject: RE: Space Wars Demo Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:30:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN > ---------- > From: Neil Bradley[SMTP:neil ] > > As an example (and though it's a wimpier design than we're expecting), > Philips has put out an 89RD51, which has either 32K/64K Flash built on > chip. They run to I think 22MHZ, and are pin compatible with 8051's. > Winbond has the 78C52 (and varients). It's an 8051 with 8K of Flash, 8 level interrupts, three timers, a bunch of I/O, and clocks out to about 40MHz. Arrow's selling them for about $2.50 each? There are versions with more Flash ('C54, C'58). -Clay From zonn Mon Nov 1 17:37:12 1999 Received: from mail.propeller.com (IDENT:qmailr [204.216.217.130]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id RAA00697 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:37:08 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 29203 invoked from network); 1 Nov 1999 23:37:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO phd-zonn.propeller.com) (139.85.201.239) by ns1.propeller.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 1999 23:37:02 -0000 From: Zonn To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Space Wars Demo Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 15:38:45 -0800 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu id RAA00708 Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:41:54 -0800 , you wrote: >You know... > >The talk of gravity calculation and the cartridge-based Space Duel made me >think... We could always stick another processor on the cartridge for a >game-- just map it as R/W memory. (A little 50Mhz Scenix chip with some >dual-port RAM would probably make a pretty good/cheap "mathbox". ...and >would be good "copy protection" for commercial games to boot.) Probably not >worth the extra effort required, but thought I'd mention it. :-) Just don't use that total pile of crap Microchip tries to pass off as an integer math package (AN617)! That's got to be the worst divide routine ever coded! I have no idea what they were trying to do, following the uncommented code is near impossible, but their claim for a 32 by 16 bit divide is: Max Timing: 699 clks Min Timing: 663 clks Program Memory: 240 (!!) Data Memory: 9 240 words of programming! Geeze!!!! That's 1/4 of the memory of a 16c84! Add the multiply routine and your all ready half out of memory!!! For the record, if anyone is interested I have a 32 by 16 bit unsigned divide routine that spec'd at: Max Timing = 393 Min Timing = 274 Program memory: 24 Data memory: 7 And a 16 by 16 multiply: Max clock = 247 Min clock = 167 Program memory: 22 Data memory: 7 Both written for the 16c84, almost from the top of my head. I've written *a lot* of simple integer math routines for microcontrollers, the standard algorithm is jokingly simple. (I'll email them to anyone interested.) 240 words??? What was that guy thinking!!! Sorry. I'm better now. That's been bugging me for a long time and when I tried venting here at work all I got was blank stares and a "what the hell are you talking about look?". A bunch of friggin twenty something Visual C++ programmers! Does anybody even remember that buried under all those GUI's and Multimedia there's a processor that only understand binary coded information???? Geeze!!! Sorry, I did it again... -Zonn From zonn Mon Nov 1 17:39:05 1999 Received: from mail.propeller.com (IDENT:qmailr [204.216.217.130]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id RAA00978 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:39:01 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 29207 invoked from network); 1 Nov 1999 23:38:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO phd-zonn.propeller.com) (139.85.201.239) by ns1.propeller.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 1999 23:38:54 -0000 From: Zonn To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Space Wars Demo Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 15:40:37 -0800 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu id RAA00983 Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:13:41 -0800 (PST), you wrote: >"Why another processor...he he...why not a DSP, yea, that's the ticket, a DSP, >the math will really fly! >;-) >" > >haven't checked on these lately. Surely the commodity chip vendors MUST have >designed cheap single chip solutions by now with flash roms, haven't they? I'd suggest the AVR series of processors. Flash ROMs, and with 32 directly addressable registers, math routines fly -- for a microcontoller anyways. -Zonn From aek Mon Nov 1 17:54:31 1999 Received: from spies.com (root [198.180.182.10]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id RAA04002 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:54:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (541 bytes) by spies.com via send-mail with P:stdio/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) (ident using unix) id for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:54:26 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #18 built 1998-Oct-15) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:54:26 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Space Wars Demo Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN "Does anybody even remember that buried under all those GUI's and Multimedia there's a processor that only understand binary coded information????" Sounds like the look I get when I tell people that I use a VT100 terminal and modem to read mail and news at home, and that I have a computer with and X/Y point plot display and 16K of core in my garage that still works just fine, thank you.. From kmahan Mon Nov 1 18:09:23 1999 Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id SAA07877 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:09:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20] ident=kmahan) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 11iRVo-0004hb-00 for vectorlist ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:09:20 -0700 Received: (from kmahan@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id RAA14291 for vectorlist ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:09:19 -0700 (MST) From: Kurt Mahan Message-Id: <199911020009.RAA14291 > Subject: Re: Space Wars Demo To: vectorlist Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:09:19 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at Nov 1, 99 03:54:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN > "Does anybody even remember > that buried under all those GUI's and Multimedia there's a processor > that only understand binary coded information????" > > Sounds like the look I get when I tell people that I use a VT100 terminal > and modem to read mail and news at home, and that I have a computer with > and X/Y point plot display and 16K of core in my garage that still works > just fine, thank you.. I tried to explain that just last year I wrote some 8080 asm for a terminal I've got that has 2k of rom and 400h bytes of ram. On person asked me if I used C, C++ or visual basic to program it. *AUGH* Oh yeah, explaining how my debug box had 2 hex displays, actual switches for each bit (for setting registers) and 4 hex rotary switches for the address was amusing... "but where is the source code?" Kurt From jess Mon Nov 1 18:11:43 1999 Received: from roper.uwyo.edu (pmdf@roper.uwyo.edu [129.72.10.8]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id RAA05258 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:59:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from asuwlink.uwyo.edu (asuwlink.uwyo.edu [129.72.60.2]) by ROPER.UWYO.EDU (PMDF V5.2-32 #33749) with ESMTP id <0FKJ0016WM22JB@ROPER.UWYO.EDU> for vectorlist ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:46:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from magenta.com (ras8912.uwyo.edu [129.72.89.12]) by asuwlink.uwyo.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA15063 for ; Mon, 01 Nov 1999 16:46:48 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 16:47:26 -0700 From: Jess Askey Subject: are we going to have "me to's" next? To: vectorlist Message-id: <381E268E.309A3FC > Organization: Random and Dispersed MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Im not the owner of this list so don't take me too seriously. There has been a lot of talk about running different games on other game hardware here lately followed by many many requests. I wanted to point out some general thoughts and also share some general info just for some of the non-tech people here on vectorlist can understand the process of doing these things and possibly the work involved. I think that if there is an interest for this we should have more posts that include people offering time to help (as many many vectorlister already do) instead of just proposing ways for Clay to solve our needs. Firstly, all the atari vector games use a *different* hardware platform (except Gravitar<->BW and SW<->ESB, that I know of). While much of the hardware is simliar and usually an improved upon version of the previous game, they are still different. Here is sort of a summary.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Game Name | LL | AST | RB | BZ | ASTD | TEM | SD | GRAV/BW | QUANT | SW/ESB | MH | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Microprocessor: | | | | | | | | | | | | Single 6502 | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | | | | 68000 | | | | | | | | | X | | | 6809 | | | | | | | | | | X | | Dual 6502 | | | | | | | | | | | X | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mathbox: | | | | | | | | | | | | None | X | X | | | X | | X | X | X | | X | Bit Slice | | | X | X | | X | | | | | | SW/ESB Style | | | | | | | | | | X | | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Vector Gen: | | | | | | | | | | | | DVG | X | X | | | | | | | | | | AVG(b/w) | | | X | X | X | | | | | | | AVG color | | | | | | X | X | | | | | AVG color + linear scale| | | | | | | | X | X | X | | AVG color)+ linear + colorRAM + paged VROM) | | | | | | | | | | | X | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Backup Mem: | | | | | | | | | | | | None | | | | | | | | | | | | EAROM | | | | X | X | X | X | X | | | | NVRAM | | | | | | | | | X | X | X | EEROM | | | | | | | | | | | X | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Basically, you can see that there are many many differences. I did not even go into specific player input differences or sound output differences. Looking over the list, there really isn't one good board that qualifies or contains enough hardware to cover all the games. Even picking one board that covers the needs of more than two other games would be difficult. Add to this that all these 'units' are located at different addresses in the games memory map. What this would mean is that the game code would have to be 'adjusted'. This is a major task that would take some pretty serious time and knowledge of the source code. Clay does seem to have an amazing knack for creating feats of vector wizardry with hardware, but I don't think his wife will start to like vids any more if we keep begging for more and more 'fancy' vector stuff. I can't speak for Clay (or Jeff, Zonn, Steve, Anders, etc) but I think they are performing a great great feat of engineering and improvment on all this games. This list is a great resource of people and instead of always asking for something *to be done*, we should be asking *how we can help*. A great example is the Tempest Code Project (one of many sites I owe email too). Instead of just asking for people to make cool changes, the author set up a really cool SSI page that allows web browsers to add comments to the Disassembled code listing. He put out some really neat effort to learn a bit of info before asking for something in return. I also realize that everyone can't dig in and learn assembly language on a whim. So whatever that wandering babble was worth. :-) Also, Im going to make up a nice HTML table like above with hardware differences with more detail, so if I screwed up anything on that table LMK (Im a bit vague on the B/W stuff and will have to dig out my schems) and hey... there is even more... since I have interjected some vector stuff and opinions. Now I will pack in a question..... I need a part for my Xybots joystick. It is called the 'plunger' and is in the upper housing of their joysticks. It is the white plastic peice that the spring pushes down into the housing to give the joystick it's springyness. Im in need of two of them and my local distrib doesn't have them anymore. thanks jess Eric Glanz wrote: > > >star castle.. ..on Tempest hardware > > That's totally cool. Can we run games like say Battlezone on > Star Wars Hardware with recoding? > > -James > > ----- > Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) > The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! From jmonast Mon Nov 1 18:20:07 1999 Received: from smtp.dhima.com ([206.83.189.60]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id SAA11735 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:20:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from slave-dog.naughtydog.com ([206.83.189.10]) by smtp.dhima.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/3.5Wpl4-mx) with SMTP id UAA09325 for < :vectorlist >; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:07:39 -0800 Received: from slave-dog(10.0.0.15) by guard-dog via Gauntlet(2.1) Mon, 01 NOV 99 16:26:56 -0800 Received: from jumbodog (jumbo-dog.naughtydog.com [10.0.0.79]) by slave-dog.naughtydog.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id QAA09265 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:20:47 -0800 (PST) From: "Justin Monast" To: Subject: RE: Space Wars Demo Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:20:47 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN I still us a VT100 terminal for my SGI Origin 200 Server and also hubs. It just about drive everyone nuts. -----Original Message----- From: owner-vectorlist [mailto:owner-vectorlist ]On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 3:54 PM To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Space Wars Demo "Does anybody even remember that buried under all those GUI's and Multimedia there's a processor that only understand binary coded information????" Sounds like the look I get when I tell people that I use a VT100 terminal and modem to read mail and news at home, and that I have a computer with and X/Y point plot display and 16K of core in my garage that still works just fine, thank you.. From neil Mon Nov 1 19:10:40 1999 Received: from synthcom.com (beacon.synthcom.com [198.145.98.253]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id TAA24743 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 19:10:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from beacon.synthcom.com (beacon.synthcom.com [198.145.98.253] (may be forged)) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA79960 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:19:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from neil ) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:19:57 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Space Wars Demo In-Reply-To: <199911020009.RAA14291 > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN > > that buried under all those GUI's and Multimedia there's a processor > > that only understand binary coded information????" > > Sounds like the look I get when I tell people that I use a VT100 terminal > > and modem to read mail and news at home, and that I have a computer with > > and X/Y point plot display and 16K of core in my garage that still works > > just fine, thank you.. > I tried to explain that just last year I wrote some 8080 asm for a terminal > I've got that has 2k of rom and 400h bytes of ram. > On person asked me if I used C, C++ or visual basic to program it. *AUGH* I personally think that people should have to be licensed before they are allowed to program. Give them 4K of RAM, 4K of ROM and say "you have to write a chess game that plays a decent game of chess in this configuration. If you can't do it, you *FAIL*." I am so bloody sick and tired of apps that should be lightning fast on PII/350 machines that run like dog crap and take 20 megs of RAM just to load up. That and the aggressively igorant attitude of the asswipes who think that because they're using C++ constructs that their programs are "object oriented", and couldn't even install a hard drive themselves without calling IT (another rant for another time). The fact is most "programmers" wouldn't be writing a single line of code if they had no memory/resources to waste. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Synthcom home : http://www.synthcom.com Synthcom Systems, Inc. C++ - Where you can make your privates public! ICQ # 29402898 Friends don't let newbie programmer friends do C++ From chris Mon Nov 1 21:53:32 1999 Received: from westnet.com (chris [206.24.6.2]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id VAA13705 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 21:53:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (chris@localhost) by westnet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA09225 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:53:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:53:26 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: "'vectorlist '" Subject: RE: Space Wars Demo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Clay Cowgill wrote: > Gravitar and Space Duel have some annoying hardware differences that would > be a problem running Gravitar on Space Duel hardware. The other way around > is probably OK though. You could populate a Space Duel with the necessary > components, but that's beyond most people's ability to do safely. Except would a Gravitar board only have one set of control inputs ? That's why I figured the Space Duel board would be a super-set. Oh well -- I guess nothing in life is easy. -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From miranda@dusk.org Mon Nov 1 22:06:29 1999 Received: from dusk.org (cx806753-a.vista1.sdca.home.com [24.0.191.92]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id WAA14820 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:06:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (miranda@localhost) by dusk.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA28358 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 21:12:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 21:12:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Miranda K. Collins" To: "'vectorlist '" Subject: RE: Space Wars Demo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN No it has both sets. If you put it in a Space Duel cabinet and ground the cocktail pin it will flip the screen and switch to the other controls for the 2nd player. Of course, the buttons are all over the place because Atari didn't keep them the same for some stupid reason. I think the pinouts for Gravitar have the 2nd player controls unlabeled. On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Christopher X. Candreva wrote: > Except would a Gravitar board only have one set of control inputs ? That's > why I figured the Space Duel board would be a super-set. > > Oh well -- I guess nothing in life is easy. > > -Chris > > ========================================================== > Chris Candreva -- chris -- (914) 967-7816 > WestNet Internet Services of Westchester > http://www.westnet.com/ > > From jhendrix Mon Nov 1 23:31:23 1999 Received: from smtpnew.quark.com (IDENT:root [206.195.78.16]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id XAA23991 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 23:31:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from denver.quark.com (denver.quark.com [206.195.71.192]) by smtpnew.quark.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA19181 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:37:57 -0700 Received: by denver.quark.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:30:21 -0700 Message-ID: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95AB2 > From: jeff hendrix To: "'vectorlist '" Subject: RE: Gravity Calculation Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:30:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN The look up table would have to be 131,072 bytes in size. ((256*256)+(256*256)) -jeff -----Original Message----- From: Zonn [mailto:zonn ] Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 3:47 PM To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Gravity Calculation On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:25:13 -0700 , you wrote: >This seems to work, but how do I implement ^-1.5 in assembly? > Might I suggest a lookup table? ;^) -Zonn From jhendrix Mon Nov 1 23:50:04 1999 Received: from smtpnew.quark.com (IDENT:root [206.195.78.16]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id XAA25570 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 23:50:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from denver.quark.com (denver.quark.com [206.195.71.192]) by smtpnew.quark.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA19392 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:56:38 -0700 Received: by denver.quark.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:49:02 -0700 Message-ID: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95AB3 > From: jeff hendrix To: "'vectorlist '" Subject: RE: Space Wars Demo Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:48:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN I checked and there is a 74LS245 on the VROM databus. You will have to grab the /we from one of the vrams or pin 11 of J6. One cool thing this would do is allow a game to use more vram if it wanted to. I was hoping that maybe there would be some way to extend vector memory space (non-paged), but the VROMs butt up against program ROMs. ps. does anybody have a source for 65802's? (pin compatible with the 6502, but it has 16 bit registers and more instructions). -jeff -----Original Message----- From: Clay Cowgill [mailto:ClayC ] Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 12:31 PM To: 'vectorlist ' Subject: RE: Space Wars Demo > 4) Have a static RAM chip in the daughter card and copy the appropriate > data > down when the game is selected. There's a couple ways to do this, but the > easiest would be for each game to copy the data down during > initialization. > This option also might be cool because it would allow shapes to be altered > in what was previously only static data. > I think this is the best way. I don't know Space Duel hardware super-well though-- is there a 74LS245 or something similar on the VROM databus (so it's bidirectional). I *think* so 'cause the VRAM is in the same address decoder range. The menu system would just load the VROM image into the "shadow" VROM space prior to jumping to the game program code. I also like that idea 'cause I can stick a 32K*8 SRAM there and we can add a bank-selection register somewhere in memory. Then, since the VGGO is under program control we can bank-switch the shadow VROM before every redraw to achieve something like character-set animation without much of any CPU use... -Clay From rlboots@cedar-rapids.net Tue Nov 2 02:29:19 1999 Received: from CEDAR-RAPIDS.NET (cedar-rapids.net [206.24.60.1]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id CAA11314 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:29:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from cedar-rapids.net ([208.242.241.185]) by CEDAR-RAPIDS.NET with ESMTP (IPAD 2.5/64) id 3855600 ; Tue, 02 Nov 1999 02:29:08 -0600 Message-ID: <381E9FFD.D7487830@cedar-rapids.net> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 02:25:33 -0600 From: Rodger Boots Organization: No noticable organization. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: G08 transistors References: <381E1408.957D010F@concentric.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN There is nothing wrong with the 2N6259 and you are going to be hard pressed to find a better part. Just because the NTE388 LOOKS to be a better part doesn't tell the whole story. There is not much out there that has better secondary breakdown characteristics than a 2N6259, but you'll never tell that by looking at just numbers, you need to see a breakdown chart. This will show you where secondary breakdown is. For example, looking at the 2N3716 data sheet at http://www.mot-sps.com/books/dl111/pdf/2n3715rev7.pdf you will see on page 5 that at full voltage (80 volts) the part will withstand .2 amps. That's only 16 watts allowed for what's supposed to be a 150 watt part! Compare that with a 2N6259 that can take 200 watts of dissipation with 90 volts across the part! What kills the 2N6259 is over voltage, plain and simple. The part is rated for (I think) 125 volts, maybe as high as 150. But the G08 uses + and - 63 volts, IDEALLY. So when the amplifier swings to the rail during a fast vector draw you have close to 125 volts. Remember I said IDEALLY? That's with the game plugged in to a 110 volt line, since that's what the Gremlin/Sega power transformer was designed for. Is there any of you with only 110 volts coming out of the wall? More like 120 to 130, isn't it? THAT'S why I keep saying the game needs to be restrapped to match the powerline. Either buck out the extra voltage with some filament transformers or whatever, but DO reduce the voltage. And what happens when the occasional power line spike comes along? The monitor blows up, that's what. In my Showbiz Pizza days we used to use NTE388's in an Eliminator at about $10 per part. They still blew up until one of the techs (not me) ran the power into the 110 and 240 taps of the game power transformer. The result was a 130 volt winding. The transistors quit blowing. It was just that simple. Mark E Davidson wrote: > Ok, Last week I said that my G08 puffed. It seems that the two > transistors supplied in the Zanen cap kit (2n3716) shorted, > smoking at least 3 resistors in the 100 to 180 ohm range on the > deflection board and some of the add on boards. There may be more damage > but that's a different issue. Could this line be fused to prevent new > damage? ( just a thought I had) > It has long been said that the original 2N6259 transistor is no > longer available. This is untrue! I ordered and (received) 20 this > weekend from my local supply house, But again that is not were Im going > here. In looking for a cross reference, I found NTE388 to have higher > specifications then the 2N6259. I put a table together comparing the two > at http://www.basementarcade.com/arcade/library/vlist/ntevs2n6259.html > Is it possible that a better part does exists in today's world? Would > the NTE388 also be a better replacement for the 2n3716 in a WG6100? > > -=Mark=- From rlboots@cedar-rapids.net Tue Nov 2 02:35:37 1999 Received: from CEDAR-RAPIDS.NET (cedar-rapids.net [206.24.60.1]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id CAA11676 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:35:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from cedar-rapids.net ([208.242.241.185]) by CEDAR-RAPIDS.NET with ESMTP (IPAD 2.5/64) id 3856000 ; Tue, 02 Nov 1999 02:35:28 -0600 Message-ID: <381EA177.1168FC6B@cedar-rapids.net> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 02:31:52 -0600 From: Rodger Boots Organization: No noticable organization. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Space Wars Demo References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN How's this for a project? We make replacements for the EAROMs used in Asteroids Deluxe and Battlezone out of used Seeburg Tormat assemblies? (Or maybe not.....) Al Kossow wrote: > "Does anybody even remember > that buried under all those GUI's and Multimedia there's a processor > that only understand binary coded information????" > > Sounds like the look I get when I tell people that I use a VT100 terminal > and modem to read mail and news at home, and that I have a computer with > and X/Y point plot display and 16K of core in my garage that still works > just fine, thank you.. From raiford Tue Nov 2 04:31:38 1999 Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id EAA14715 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 04:31:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from jon (user-2ivec3i.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.48.114]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA20160 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 05:31:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19991102052833.006e1828 > X-Sender: us001378 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 05:28:33 -0500 To: vectorlist From: Jon Raiford Subject: Re: Space Wars Demo In-Reply-To: <381EA177.1168FC6B@cedar-rapids.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN If those are the same EAROM's that were used in Dig Dug, Tempest, Gravitar, etc., then replacements have already been made using dallas battery-backed ram. I convinced Jrok that they needed to be made, then he found a ton of NOS ones :) I do have a sample repro here *and* it doesn't require the 25v? secondary power for it to work (read: it can be used in conjunction with a jamma adaptor w/o the need of the ar2 or the 25v, although an external amp is still needed). Anyway, if you need a couple, contact Jrok. Jon At 02:31 AM 11/2/99 -0600, you wrote: >How's this for a project? We make replacements for the EAROMs used in >Asteroids Deluxe and Battlezone out of used Seeburg Tormat assemblies? > >(Or maybe not.....) > > >Al Kossow wrote: > >> "Does anybody even remember >> that buried under all those GUI's and Multimedia there's a processor >> that only understand binary coded information????" >> >> Sounds like the look I get when I tell people that I use a VT100 terminal >> and modem to read mail and news at home, and that I have a computer with >> and X/Y point plot display and 16K of core in my garage that still works >> just fine, thank you.. > > From rikbrandt Tue Nov 2 11:06:18 1999 Received: from web122.yahoomail.com (web122.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.57]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id LAA25102 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:06:16 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19991102171755.14504.rocketmail > Received: from [204.176.92.20] by web122.yahoomail.com; Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:17:55 PST Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:17:55 -0800 (PST) From: Richard Brandt Subject: Flyback for Tempest To: vectorlist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Hello to the Vectorlist! I'm new to the group, and was hoping to find a little help in getting a Tempest game up and working. I've already gotten the LV2000 board from Jeff Hendrix, and the cap kit from Zanen, the one part holding me back from finishing up is the flyback transformer. If anyone out there knows of a source for flybacks for the wells-gardner 6100 x-y monitor, please let me know. Thanks! Rik ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From jess Tue Nov 2 11:43:45 1999 Received: from roper.uwyo.edu (pmdf@roper.uwyo.edu [129.72.10.8]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id LAA01482 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:43:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from asuwlink.uwyo.edu (asuwlink.uwyo.edu [129.72.60.2]) by ROPER.UWYO.EDU (PMDF V5.2-32 #33749) with ESMTP id <0FKK00J7NZINS3@ROPER.UWYO.EDU> for vectorlist ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:35:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from magenta.com (ras877.uwyo.edu [129.72.87.7]) by asuwlink.uwyo.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28297 for ; Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:35:10 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:35:54 -0700 From: Jess Askey Subject: Re: Flyback for Tempest To: vectorlist Message-id: <381F20FA.668446DA > Organization: Random and Dispersed MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <19991102171755.14504.rocketmail > Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN I have a Tempest HV unit that the PCB is cracked on. The Focus/screen control is also broken but the flyback is fine. Send me a email at jess and I can give you more details. I would sell it for $20. jess Richard Brandt wrote: > > Hello to the Vectorlist! > > I'm new to the group, and was hoping to find a little > help in getting a Tempest game up and working. I've > already gotten the LV2000 board from Jeff Hendrix, and > the cap kit from Zanen, the one part holding me back > from finishing up is the flyback transformer. If > anyone out there knows of a source for flybacks for > the wells-gardner 6100 x-y monitor, please let me > know. > > Thanks! > > Rik > > ===== > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From zonn Tue Nov 2 12:05:50 1999 Received: from mail.propeller.com (IDENT:qmailr [204.216.217.130]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id MAA04471 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 12:05:42 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 29895 invoked from network); 2 Nov 1999 18:05:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO phd-zonn.propeller.com) (139.85.201.239) by ns1.propeller.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 1999 18:05:25 -0000 From: Zonn To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Gravity Calculation Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:07:08 -0800 Message-ID: References: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95AB2 > In-Reply-To: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95AB2 > X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu id MAA04490 Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:30:17 -0700 , you wrote: >The look up table would have to be 131,072 bytes in size. >((256*256)+(256*256)) Not using the shift lookup technique I described in an earlier message for the sqrt() function. Using the upper 8 bits as the index into the lookup table allows for a lookup table of 1272 bytes (assuming 1 byte results of the ^-1.5 function, the sqrt() always returned an answer that fit in one byte, this might not be true for the ^-1.5 function). Of course this limits your results to one of 1272 possible answers which is probably more than enough resolution. -Zonn From jess Tue Nov 2 12:20:18 1999 Received: from roper.uwyo.edu (pmdf@roper.uwyo.edu [129.72.10.8]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id MAA06308 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 12:20:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from asuwlink.uwyo.edu (asuwlink.uwyo.edu [129.72.60.2]) by ROPER.UWYO.EDU (PMDF V5.2-32 #33749) with ESMTP id <0FKL0010K1GOYV@ROPER.UWYO.EDU> for vectorlist ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:17:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from magenta.com (ras877.uwyo.edu [129.72.87.7]) by asuwlink.uwyo.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14689 for ; Tue, 02 Nov 1999 11:17:11 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 11:17:55 -0700 From: Jess Askey Subject: Re: Flyback for Tempest To: vectorlist Message-id: <381F2AD3.1E76395A > Organization: Random and Dispersed MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <19991102171755.14504.rocketmail > Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Sheesh. I didn't know 6100 flybacks were in such demand. (I should have asked for more money! ;-) Anyway, Richard has first dibs on it if he wants it. Followed by Scott S. and Greg W. I may have one more that I will sell for that price. But either Scott of Gregg will get it I sure. After that, Im out of spares ( 1 left for me). Richard Brandt wrote: > > Hello to the Vectorlist! > > I'm new to the group, and was hoping to find a little > help in getting a Tempest game up and working. I've > already gotten the LV2000 board from Jeff Hendrix, and > the cap kit from Zanen, the one part holding me back > from finishing up is the flyback transformer. If > anyone out there knows of a source for flybacks for > the wells-gardner 6100 x-y monitor, please let me > know. > > Thanks! > > Rik > > ===== > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From nelsonjjjj Tue Nov 2 13:27:10 1999 Received: from mail02.rapidsite.net (mail02.rapidsite.net [207.158.192.68]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id NAA14230 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:27:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from www.didactics.com (209.41.62.45) by mail02.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.53) with SMTP id 02390 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:36:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002501bf2561$2ea84ba0$0c01010a@daytrader2> Reply-To: vectorlist From: "James Nelson" To: References: <19991102171755.14504.rocketmail > Subject: New Vector Monitor Project: Req for 25" schematics Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:36:30 -0500 Organization: eBay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN What is the model # of the 25" Vector monitor that was used in the cockpit Star Wars? Does anyone have a link to the schematics for this unit? Thanks, James From aek Tue Nov 2 13:58:50 1999 Received: from spies.com (root [198.180.182.10]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id NAA17273 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:58:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (379 bytes) by spies.com via send-mail with P:stdio/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) (ident using unix) id for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:58:53 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #18 built 1998-Oct-15) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:58:53 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: space war Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN If someone still has them, there was a series of articles in some late 70's issues of Byte describing how to write a space war. If there is an on-line index of Byte articles, try looking for 'space war' or 'spacewar' in the article name. From batlzone@cyberenet.net Tue Nov 2 14:03:10 1999 Received: from almail ([208.33.11.3]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id OAA17955 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:03:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from cyberenet.net (10.2.3.249[10.2.3.249])by AWARNER3(MailMax 3.059) with ESMTP id 5775 for ; Tue, 02 Nov 1999 14:58:58 -0500 EST Message-ID: <381F4281.3D8143BE@cyberenet.net> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 14:58:57 -0500 From: Al Warner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: New Vector Monitor Project: Req for 25" schematics References: <19991102171755.14504.rocketmail > <002501bf2561$2ea84ba0$0c01010a@daytrader2> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Amplifone. Start Here: http://www.gamearchive.com/video/manufacturer/atari/vector/html/monitor.html James Nelson wrote: > What is the model # of the 25" Vector monitor that was used in the cockpit > Star Wars? > Does anyone have a link to the schematics for this unit? > > Thanks, > James From jess Tue Nov 2 14:07:21 1999 Received: from roper.uwyo.edu (pmdf@roper.uwyo.edu [129.72.10.8]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id OAA18734 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:07:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from asuwlink.uwyo.edu (asuwlink.uwyo.edu [129.72.10.2]) by ROPER.UWYO.EDU (PMDF V5.2-32 #33749) with ESMTP id <0FKL00CBW6FSO8@ROPER.UWYO.EDU> for vectorlist ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:04:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from magenta.com (ras8924.uwyo.edu [129.72.89.24]) by asuwlink.uwyo.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06850 for ; Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:04:39 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:05:24 -0700 From: Jess Askey Subject: Re: New Vector Monitor Project: Req for 25" schematics To: vectorlist Message-id: <381F4404.1C40A68D > Organization: Random and Dispersed MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <19991102171755.14504.rocketmail > <381F20FA.668446DA > <002501bf2561$2ea84ba0$0c01010a@daytrader2> Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN AFAIK the 25" and 19" have the same manual. it is at... http://www.gamearchive.com/video/manufacturer/atari/vector/html/monitor.html James Nelson wrote: > > What is the model # of the 25" Vector monitor that was used in the cockpit > Star Wars? > Does anyone have a link to the schematics for this unit? > > Thanks, > James From Brendan.Keith Tue Nov 2 14:08:06 1999 Received: from resolver.wilcom.com (resolver.wilcom.com [169.206.12.8]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id OAA18922 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:08:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from wcghoue003.wilex.wilcom.com (wcghoue003.wilcom.com [169.206.239.199]) by resolver.wilcom.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA04506 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:07:43 -0600 (CST) Received: by wcghoue003.wilcom.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:09:45 -0600 Message-ID: <01603F7CF8C7D111B9B80000F80463F701098407 > From: "Keith, Brendan" To: "'vectorlist '" Subject: RE: space war Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:07:23 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN But, again, did it emulate the PDP one, or the Atari (Computer Space) or Cinematronics? Or did it use proper gravity calculations? I guess we'll find out soon. Brendan Keith brendan.keith > ---------- > From: aek ] > > If someone still has them, there was a series of articles in some > late 70's issues of Byte describing how to write a space war. From nelsonjjjj Tue Nov 2 18:55:15 1999 Received: from mail02.rapidsite.net (mail02.rapidsite.net [207.158.192.68]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id SAA04337 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:55:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from www.didactics.com (209.41.62.45) by mail02.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.53) with SMTP id 03900 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 19:55:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <045001bf2596$0d4aef00$0c01010a@daytrader2> Reply-To: vectorlist From: "James Nelson" To: References: <19991102171755.14504.rocketmail > <002501bf2561$2ea84ba0$0c01010a@daytrader2> Subject: New Vector Monitor Project: DEFLECTION SCHEMATIC FOR REVIEW Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 19:54:49 -0500 Organization: eBay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Here is a first cut at the new deflection stage: http://www.angelfire.com/nh/northamericantelecom/images/deflection01.gif I am asking for feedback on this. If I make i'm right, this neat topology should work for just about any system. I haven't run it by the think tank at my work yet. Thanks, James From mendel@matranortel.nl Wed Nov 3 03:14:47 1999 Received: from smtp.matra.nl ([195.18.69.66]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id DAA05589 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 03:14:44 -0600 (CST) Received: by smtp.matra.nl(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.4 (830.2 3-23-1999)) id C125681E.00333F5A ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:19:45 +0100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: MATRA EXITEL/NL@INTERNET From: "Mendel Pearl" To: vectorlist Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:18:10 +0100 Subject: Re: Flyback for Tempest Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Are you sure it's dead? Richard Brandt on 11/02/99 06:17:55 PM Please respond to vectorlist To: vectorlist cc: (bcc: Mendel Pearl/Matra exiTel/nl) Subject: Flyback for Tempest Hello to the Vectorlist! I'm new to the group, and was hoping to find a little help in getting a Tempest game up and working. I've already gotten the LV2000 board from Jeff Hendrix, and the cap kit from Zanen, the one part holding me back from finishing up is the flyback transformer. If anyone out there knows of a source for flybacks for the wells-gardner 6100 x-y monitor, please let me know. Thanks! Rik ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From Ahowald@bilbo.w-link.net Wed Nov 3 03:41:03 1999 Received: from bilbo.w-link.net (bilbo.w-link.net [206.98.114.20]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id DAA07714 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 03:41:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from aarons (dial56-156.w-link.net [208.178.8.191]) by bilbo.w-link.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id BAA14912 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 01:40:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000701bf25e7$ef3404a0$bf08b2d0@aarons> From: "Aaron Howald" To: References: <19991102171755.14504.rocketmail > <002501bf2561$2ea84ba0$0c01010a@daytrader2> <045001bf2596$0d4aef00$0c01010a@daytrader2> Subject: Re: New Vector Monitor Project: DEFLECTION SCHEMATIC FOR REVIEW Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 02:41:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN ----- Original Message ----- From: James Nelson To: Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 4:54 PM Subject: New Vector Monitor Project: DEFLECTION SCHEMATIC FOR REVIEW > Here is a first cut at the new deflection stage: > > http://www.angelfire.com/nh/northamericantelecom/images/deflection01.gif > > I am asking for feedback on this. > > If I make i'm right, this neat topology should work for just about any > system. > I haven't run it by the think tank at my work yet. looks good! I like the simplicity, and using an op-amp for the feedback makes a lot of sense. Aaron Howald ahowald@w-link.net From mendel@matranortel.nl Wed Nov 3 03:48:12 1999 Received: from smtp.matra.nl ([195.18.69.66]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id DAA08031 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 03:48:11 -0600 (CST) Received: by smtp.matra.nl(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.4 (830.2 3-23-1999)) id C125681E.00365093 ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:53:15 +0100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: MATRA EXITEL/NL@INTERNET From: "Mendel Pearl" To: vectorlist Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:51:46 +0100 Subject: Analog Vecor Generator Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Hi there, I am trying to repair my beloved Tempest board. The problem is that the 'Y' output does not function, and the 'X' output is distorted. So, the first thing I did was to check if the DAC's get their data, and they do get it both on all data lines. Then I checked waveforms on the outputs, in the crosshair (the large 'plus' sign) test mode. Am I right both the output should look like a sawtooth? When I examine the current outputs of the DACS, I found that the working, but distorted 'X' output was nice virtual ground, and after the current/voltage convertor I get a waveform. BUT, in the middle of the sawtooth there is a big triangular 'dip'. Could this be beause the DAC is bad, or is it more likely the DAC is getting wrong data? You can spot this dip in any test mode. For the 'Y' current DAC output, which is not working at all, I measure a 5 volt p-p random-like sawtooth (which does not resemble the one you should get AFTER the current/voltage convertor) in stead of a virtual ground. So my guess is the DAC's bad, but I am not sure, because I cannot explain what the DAC08 is exactly doing (this one generates a 'BIPOLAR' signal, a current added to that of the X-Y DACs). AM6012 DAC's cost about $30 here in Holland, so I want to make sure before buying and blowing them again. :) I tried to find exact information on this AVG circuit on the net, but I cannot find a really good description of it's priciple of operation, and why the analog multipliers MC1495 are in the circuit. Any expert help on troubleshooting this AVG would be VERY appreciated :) Thanks for reading, Mendel Pearl From rlboots@cedar-rapids.net Wed Nov 3 03:58:55 1999 Received: from CEDAR-RAPIDS.NET (cedar-rapids.net [206.24.60.1]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id DAA08864 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 03:58:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from cedar-rapids.net ([208.242.241.185]) by CEDAR-RAPIDS.NET with ESMTP (IPAD 2.5/64) id 4377500 ; Wed, 03 Nov 1999 03:58:44 -0600 Message-ID: <3820072C.DEDD05C4@cedar-rapids.net> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 03:58:04 -0600 From: Rodger Boots Organization: No noticable organization. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: New Vector Monitor Project: DEFLECTION SCHEMATIC FOR REVIEW References: <19991102171755.14504.rocketmail > <002501bf2561$2ea84ba0$0c01010a@daytrader2> <045001bf2596$0d4aef00$0c01010a@daytrader2> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Well, it IS a try, but it needs more work. Here's where you went wrong. First thing is the opamp running from + and - 15 volts, but the output of the opamp has to be able to swing to the negative rail of the output stage if the output stage is ever to swing positive. As it is the output stage is going to go full negative until the opamp output blows up. Then it will either stay full negative or swing full positive. At this point you will have wished you had a (next paragraph). A fuse in one of the yoke leads, probably best if on the transistor side. Output ballast resistor are too high by about a factor of 10. At 3 amps of yoke current (not unrealistic) you'll be dumping 9 watts into a 1 ohm resistor. And dropping 3 volts. And at 3 amps the 2 ohm feedback resistor will have 18 watts of dissipation with a 6 volt drop. Anything over .5 ohms here is way too much. And if you use a wirewound resistor it MUST be a non-inductive type or you'll have a very unstable amplifier. As they sit, the input clamp diodes are worthless. It would take 30 volts on an input to turn them on. I know of no game board that could put out this much. The output transistors are rated for 50 amps (!), 120 volts, and 300 watts (!!). At first glance this is VERY impressive, but on second glance they are worthless for this use. Why? Well, first take a look at the turn-on / turn-off times. THERE AREN'T ANY! These parts are dead slow and not meant for anything fast like a vector amplifier. What you will end up with is one transistor being turned on before the other has a chance to turn off. The transistors will then be trying to short out the power supply. Second, if you look at the secondary breakdown chart you will see that secondary breakdown begins at only 37 volts. Even allowing the 3 amp rating I keep pulling from thin air you can only take about 50 volts. And note there isn't any "for 1 millisecond" or anything lines here, mostly because the part isn't fast enough in the first place. I was going to say something about the lack of emitter-base resistors, but I see they are internal on these parts. Look at the specs for a BU806 sometime. A real shame there isn't a PNP equivalent. Things to keep in mind when selecting an output transistor: 1) Avoid a metal case. Manufacturers are trying to quit making these and it would be desirable to use something that will be available in the future. Best bet is a TO-220. 2) Make sure it is fast enough. Turn-on or turn-off times more than a microsecond or so aren't going to cut it. 3) Don't skimp on breakdown voltage. All it takes is one good power line spike and yours design could be the next GO8 fire hazards IF the transistor can't handle the voltage. (This is where the GO8 design missed the mark). 4) Current capability is good, but higher capability usually means a slower part, and speed can be more important. 5) It HAS to withstand a game board lockup where the beam is deflected off the screen. In this condition you will end up with full voltage across the part at more current than you planned on. Let's for example say the voltage is 30 volts and the current goes to 5 amps (once again, NOT unrealistic). This is 150 watts until either the fuse blows or something else burns up. The output stage has to be able to withstand this for however long it takes for the fuse to blow. A 3 amp fuse should blow within 10 seconds with 6 amps going through it or over a minute with 3 amps going through it. What does that mean at 5 amps? Who knows---it depends on how warm the fuse was to begin with and a bunch of other things. But even if it's only 10 seconds it won't mean anything if the transistor is in secondary breakdown where the chart says "1 millisecond or less". After the first millisecond, in that case, the transistor shorts out and it no longer matters to it how long the fuse lasted. Then when the signal returns and the OTHER output transistor is told to turn on it will see double the voltage at a very high current (no feedback in this case). It is almost instantly toast. The point I'm trying to make is you need to stay as far away from secondary breakdown as you can get. The 2N6259 was great for this as it could take full power with 90 volts across it. If the GO8 wouldn't have put so much voltage across it there wouldn't have been a problem. I don't mean to be hard on you, but you DID ask, didn't you? :-) James Nelson wrote: > Here is a first cut at the new deflection stage: > > http://www.angelfire.com/nh/northamericantelecom/images/deflection01.gif > > I am asking for feedback on this. > > If I make i'm right, this neat topology should work for just about any > system. > I haven't run it by the think tank at my work yet. > > Thanks, > James From rlboots@cedar-rapids.net Wed Nov 3 04:04:31 1999 Received: from CEDAR-RAPIDS.NET (cedar-rapids.net [206.24.60.1]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id EAA09339 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 04:04:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from cedar-rapids.net ([208.242.241.185]) by CEDAR-RAPIDS.NET with ESMTP (IPAD 2.5/64) id 4377900 ; Wed, 03 Nov 1999 04:04:21 -0600 Message-ID: <3820087D.6034BA9F@cedar-rapids.net> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 04:03:41 -0600 From: Rodger Boots Organization: No noticable organization. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Analog Vecor Generator References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Mendel Pearl wrote: > Hi there, > > I am trying to repair my beloved Tempest board. > > The problem is that the 'Y' output does not function, and the 'X' output is > distorted. > > So, the first thing I did was to check if the DAC's get their data, and they do > get it both on all data lines. Then I checked waveforms on the outputs, in the > crosshair (the large 'plus' sign) test mode. Am I right both the output should > look like a sawtooth? > > When I examine the current outputs of the DACS, I found that the working, but > distorted 'X' output was nice virtual ground, and after the current/voltage > convertor I get a waveform. BUT, in the middle of the sawtooth there is a big > triangular 'dip'. Could this be beause the DAC is bad, or is it more likely the > DAC is getting wrong data? You can spot this dip in any test mode. > Hope for wrong data. Fix the other output first and then see if this is still bad. > > For the 'Y' current DAC output, which is not working at all, I measure a 5 volt > p-p random-like sawtooth (which does not resemble the one you should get AFTER > the current/voltage convertor) in stead of a virtual ground. > So my guess is the DAC's bad, but I am not sure, because I cannot explain what > the DAC08 is exactly doing (this one generates a 'BIPOLAR' signal, a current > added to that of the X-Y DACs). > AM6012 DAC's cost about $30 here in Holland, so I want to make sure before > buying and blowing them again. :) > If you don't have the virtual ground it probably ISN'T the DAC, the opamp is probably bad. It's the output of the opamp, fed back through a resistor inside the DAC, that gives the virtual ground. If the opamp is bad and has no output there is no feedback and you get exactly as you describe. > > I tried to find exact information on this AVG circuit on the net, but I cannot > find a really good description of it's priciple of operation, and why the analog > multipliers MC1495 are in the circuit. > The multipliers are a form of pincushion correction needed by certain monitors. > > Any expert help on troubleshooting this AVG would be VERY appreciated :) > > Thanks for reading, > > Mendel Pearl From Ahowald@bilbo.w-link.net Wed Nov 3 04:39:22 1999 Received: from bilbo.w-link.net (bilbo.w-link.net [206.98.114.20]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id EAA10719 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 04:39:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from aarons (dial56-169.w-link.net [208.178.8.204]) by bilbo.w-link.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id CAA17646 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 02:39:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001901bf25f0$12fb48a0$bf08b2d0@aarons> From: "Aaron Howald" To: References: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02D95AB2 > Subject: Re: Gravity Calculation-my way! Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 03:38:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN ----- Original Message ----- From: Zonn To: Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 10:07 AM Subject: Re: Gravity Calculation > On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:30:17 -0700 , you wrote: > > >The look up table would have to be 131,072 bytes in size. > >((256*256)+(256*256)) > > Not using the shift lookup technique I described in an earlier message > for the sqrt() function. Using the upper 8 bits as the index into the > lookup table allows for a lookup table of 1272 bytes (assuming 1 byte > results of the ^-1.5 function, the sqrt() always returned an answer > that fit in one byte, this might not be true for the ^-1.5 function). > Of course this limits your results to one of 1272 possible answers > which is probably more than enough resolution. I am using a 127x127 table-if two points are farther apart than 127 pixels , the number is shifted to fit in the table, the value is pulled from it, and the result shifted back out, at a lesser resulution as the distance increases. (a quick and dirty abs(x)+abs(y) is done first to set the#of shifts) This gives 1 pixel resulution out to 2x the maxium object size (in my game vector engine) 2 pixel res out to 4x, 4 pix res out to 8x, etc...this is mainly to be used for point to point collision detection... Since the game screen is max 1024x1024, worse case error is 8 pixels off (real pos vs. approximation) from screen corner to screen corner! prehaps a bit memory hungry, but the speed is worth it... Each object in my engine checks the last closet point on all other objects (found by themselves before!!) to 3 points on itself-the closest last time, and the 2 to either side. So say I have 20 objects (say, asteroids? :*) flying around-each 'roid does 3 tests on all others-this is true for ALL of them, so 3x19x19=1083 tests each FRAME! (19, since not testing itself...) I need as much speed as i can get! Also, I am proud to say this routine can do 3 things at once: collision detection (by proximity or x/y crossing), gravity, and lighting! The memory use IS worth it! BTW, I want to thank you all on all this discussion on gravity and distance measurements-it has been quite helpful! I had no idea there were so many ways to do it... (I thought I'd throw in my $2 worth tonight!) Aaron Howald ahowald@w-link.net From mendel@matranortel.nl Wed Nov 3 04:42:34 1999 Received: from smtp.matra.nl ([195.18.69.66]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id EAA11002 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 04:42:31 -0600 (CST) Received: by smtp.matra.nl(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.4 (830.2 3-23-1999)) id C125681E.003B4AAB ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:47:37 +0100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: MATRA EXITEL/NL@INTERNET From: "Mendel Pearl" To: vectorlist Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:46:02 +0100 Subject: Re: Analog Vecor Generator Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN >> >> When I examine the current outputs of the DACS, I found that the working, but >> distorted 'X' output was nice virtual ground, and after the current/voltage >> convertor I get a waveform. BUT, in the middle of the sawtooth there is a big >> triangular 'dip'. Could this be beause the DAC is bad, or is it more likely the >> DAC is getting wrong data? You can spot this dip in any test mode. > >Hope for wrong data. Fix the other output first and then see if this is still bad. Would that not be much harder to fix than a defective DAC or op-amp? I can imagine it will be a lot of trouble fixing the mathbox or something... What do you do to fix processor-related stuff, just check for activity around all logic gates/ram/rom? >> For the 'Y' current DAC output, which is not working at all, I measure a 5 volt >> p-p random-like sawtooth (which does not resemble the one you should get AFTER >> the current/voltage convertor) in stead of a virtual ground. >> So my guess is the DAC's bad, but I am not sure, because I cannot explain what >> the DAC08 is exactly doing (this one generates a 'BIPOLAR' signal, a current >> added to that of the X-Y DACs). >> AM6012 DAC's cost about $30 here in Holland, so I want to make sure before >> buying and blowing them again. :) > >If you don't have the virtual ground it probably ISN'T the DAC, the opamp is >probably bad. It's the output of the opamp, fed back through a resistor inside the >DAC, that gives the virtual ground. If the opamp is bad and has no output there is >no feedback and you get exactly as you describe. You are probably right there. It's the Op-Amp providing the virtual ground indeed. I've checked outputs and these are clipped to VCC, so it is the feedback network or the amp itself... > >> I tried to find exact information on this AVG circuit on the net, but I cannot >> find a really good description of it's priciple of operation, and why the analog >> multipliers MC1495 are in the circuit. > >The multipliers are a form of pincushion correction needed by certain monitors. With what signal do these multipliers multiply? Thanks for your info! From rlboots@cedar-rapids.net Wed Nov 3 04:59:32 1999 Received: from CEDAR-RAPIDS.NET (cedar-rapids.net [206.24.60.1]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id EAA11757 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 04:59:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from cedar-rapids.net ([208.242.241.185]) by CEDAR-RAPIDS.NET with ESMTP (IPAD 2.5/64) id 4384600 ; Wed, 03 Nov 1999 04:59:24 -0600 Message-ID: <38201561.B0E77A76@cedar-rapids.net> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 04:58:41 -0600 From: Rodger Boots Organization: No noticable organization. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Analog Vecor Generator References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Mendel Pearl wrote: > >> > >> When I examine the current outputs of the DACS, I found that the working, but > >> distorted 'X' output was nice virtual ground, and after the current/voltage > >> convertor I get a waveform. BUT, in the middle of the sawtooth there is a big > >> triangular 'dip'. Could this be beause the DAC is bad, or is it more likely > the > >> DAC is getting wrong data? You can spot this dip in any test mode. > > > > >Hope for wrong data. Fix the other output first and then see if this is still > bad. > > Would that not be much harder to fix than a defective DAC or op-amp? I can > imagine it will be a lot of trouble fixing the mathbox or something... What do > you do to fix processor-related stuff, just check for activity around all logic > gates/ram/rom? > I have a tendency to fix the worst problem (in your case the other channel) and am SOMETIMES rewarded with the other problems going away by themselves as a bonus. > > >> For the 'Y' current DAC output, which is not working at all, I measure a 5 > volt > >> p-p random-like sawtooth (which does not resemble the one you should get > AFTER > >> the current/voltage convertor) in stead of a virtual ground. > >> So my guess is the DAC's bad, but I am not sure, because I cannot explain > what > >> the DAC08 is exactly doing (this one generates a 'BIPOLAR' signal, a current > >> added to that of the X-Y DACs). > >> AM6012 DAC's cost about $30 here in Holland, so I want to make sure before > >> buying and blowing them again. :) > > > > >If you don't have the virtual ground it probably ISN'T the DAC, the opamp is > >probably bad. It's the output of the opamp, fed back through a resistor inside > the > >DAC, that gives the virtual ground. If the opamp is bad and has no output > there is > >no feedback and you get exactly as you describe. > > You are probably right there. It's the Op-Amp providing the virtual ground > indeed. I've checked outputs and these are clipped to VCC, so it is the feedback > network or the amp itself... > > > > >> I tried to find exact information on this AVG circuit on the net, but I > cannot > >> find a really good description of it's priciple of operation, and why the > analog > >> multipliers MC1495 are in the circuit. > > > > >The multipliers are a form of pincushion correction needed by certain monitors. > > With what signal do these multipliers multiply? > Not sure, haven't looked at the schematics. It will be some combination of X and Y, though. > > Thanks for your info! From rlboots@cedar-rapids.net Wed Nov 3 05:09:08 1999 Received: from CEDAR-RAPIDS.NET (cedar-rapids.net [206.24.60.1]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id FAA11983 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 05:09:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from cedar-rapids.net ([208.242.241.185]) by CEDAR-RAPIDS.NET with ESMTP (IPAD 2.5/64) id 4386000 ; Wed, 03 Nov 1999 05:09:00 -0600 Message-ID: <3820179F.E5EA30D5@cedar-rapids.net> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 05:08:16 -0600 From: Rodger Boots Organization: No noticable organization. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vectorlist " Subject: CRT FAQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN There is a great CRT FAQ at http://www.pacwest.net/Byron13/sam/crtfaq.htm From nelsonjjjj Wed Nov 3 08:37:01 1999 Received: from mail05.rapidsite.net (mail05.rapidsite.net [207.158.192.42]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id IAA29530 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 08:37:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from www.didactics.com (209.41.62.45) by mail05.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.53) with SMTP id 021254080 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 09:36:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000e01bf2608$cab64540$0c01010a@daytrader2> Reply-To: vectorlist From: "James Nelson" To: References: <19991102171755.14504.rocketmail > <002501bf2561$2ea84ba0$0c01010a@daytrader2> <045001bf2596$0d4aef00$0c01010a@daytrader2> <3820072C.DEDD05C4@cedar-rapids.net> Subject: Re: New Vector Monitor Project: DEFLECTION SCHEMATIC FOR REVIEW Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 09:36:18 -0500 Organization: eBay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Excellent comments! (be as hard on me as you can) This is a technical discussion. Some of the issues I was planning to address with more protection circuitry. I will address each issue mentioned and drop another schematic. By the way, Op Amps don't blow up and aren't even taxed when they go full rail Thanks, James ----- Original Message ----- From: Rodger Boots To: Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 4:58 AM Subject: Re: New Vector Monitor Project: DEFLECTION SCHEMATIC FOR REVIEW > Well, it IS a try, but it needs more work. Here's where you went wrong. > > First thing is the opamp running from + and - 15 volts, but the output of > the opamp has to be able to swing to the negative rail of the output stage > if the output stage is ever to swing positive. As it is the output stage is > going to go full negative until the opamp output blows up. Then it will > either stay full negative or swing full positive. At this point you will > have wished you had a (next paragraph). > > A fuse in one of the yoke leads, probably best if on the transistor side. > > Output ballast resistor are too high by about a factor of 10. At 3 amps of > yoke current (not unrealistic) you'll be dumping 9 watts into a 1 ohm > resistor. And dropping 3 volts. > > And at 3 amps the 2 ohm feedback resistor will have 18 watts of dissipation > with a 6 volt drop. Anything over .5 ohms here is way too much. And if you > use a wirewound resistor it MUST be a non-inductive type or you'll have a > very unstable amplifier. > > As they sit, the input clamp diodes are worthless. It would take 30 volts > on an input to turn them on. I know of no game board that could put out > this much. > > The output transistors are rated for 50 amps (!), 120 volts, and 300 watts > (!!). At first glance this is VERY impressive, but on second glance they > are worthless for this use. Why? Well, first take a look at the turn-on / > turn-off times. THERE AREN'T ANY! These parts are dead slow and not meant > for anything fast like a vector amplifier. What you will end up with is one > transistor being turned on before the other has a chance to turn off. The > transistors will then be trying to short out the power supply. Second, if > you look at the secondary breakdown chart you will see that secondary > breakdown begins at only 37 volts. Even allowing the 3 amp rating I keep > pulling from thin air you can only take about 50 volts. And note there > isn't any "for 1 millisecond" or anything lines here, mostly because the > part isn't fast enough in the first place. > > I was going to say something about the lack of emitter-base resistors, but I > see they are internal on these parts. > > Look at the specs for a BU806 sometime. A real shame there isn't a PNP > equivalent. > > Things to keep in mind when selecting an output transistor: > 1) Avoid a metal case. Manufacturers are trying to quit making these and > it would be desirable to use something that will be available in the > future. Best bet is a TO-220. > 2) Make sure it is fast enough. Turn-on or turn-off times more than a > microsecond or so aren't going to cut it. > 3) Don't skimp on breakdown voltage. All it takes is one good power line > spike and yours design could be the next GO8 fire hazards IF the transistor > can't handle the voltage. (This is where the GO8 design missed the mark). > 4) Current capability is good, but higher capability usually means a slower > part, and speed can be more important. > 5) It HAS to withstand a game board lockup where the beam is deflected off > the screen. In this condition you will end up with full voltage across the > part at more current than you planned on. Let's for example say the voltage > is 30 volts and the current goes to 5 amps (once again, NOT unrealistic). > This is 150 watts until either the fuse blows or something else burns up. > The output stage has to be able to withstand this for however long it takes > for the fuse to blow. A 3 amp fuse should blow within 10 seconds with 6 > amps going through it or over a minute with 3 amps going through it. What > does that mean at 5 amps? Who knows---it depends on how warm the fuse was > to begin with and a bunch of other things. But even if it's only 10 seconds > it won't mean anything if the transistor is in secondary breakdown where the > chart says "1 millisecond or less". After the first millisecond, in that > case, the transistor shorts out and it no longer matters to it how long the > fuse lasted. Then when the signal returns and the OTHER output transistor > is told to turn on it will see double the voltage at a very high current (no > feedback in this case). It is almost instantly toast. The point I'm trying > to make is you need to stay as far away from secondary breakdown as you can > get. The 2N6259 was great for this as it could take full power with 90 > volts across it. If the GO8 wouldn't have put so much voltage across it > there wouldn't have been a problem. > > I don't mean to be hard on you, but you DID ask, didn't you? :-) > > > James Nelson wrote: > > > Here is a first cut at the new deflection stage: > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/nh/northamericantelecom/images/deflection01.gif > > > > I am asking for feedback on this. > > > > If I make i'm right, this neat topology should work for just about any > > system. > > I haven't run it by the think tank at my work yet. > > > > Thanks, > > James > > From rikbrandt Wed Nov 3 09:29:07 1999 Received: from web123.yahoomail.com (web123.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.191]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with SMTP id JAA04028 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 09:29:06 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19991103152923.29661.rocketmail > Received: from [204.176.92.20] by web123.yahoomail.com; Wed, 03 Nov 1999 07:29:23 PST Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:29:23 -0800 (PST) From: Richard Brandt Subject: Re: Flyback for Tempest To: vectorlist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Oh yea...I'm sure....it's split wide open down one side, looks like it overheated internaly, and melted down... --- Mendel Pearl wrote: > > > Are you sure it's dead? > > > > > Richard Brandt on 11/02/99 > 06:17:55 PM > > Please respond to vectorlist > > To: vectorlist > cc: (bcc: Mendel Pearl/Matra exiTel/nl) > Subject: Flyback for Tempest > > > > > Hello to the Vectorlist! > > I'm new to the group, and was hoping to find a > little > help in getting a Tempest game up and working. I've > already gotten the LV2000 board from Jeff Hendrix, > and > the cap kit from Zanen, the one part holding me back > from finishing up is the flyback transformer. If > anyone out there knows of a source for flybacks for > the wells-gardner 6100 x-y monitor, please let me > know. > > Thanks! > > Rik > > > ===== > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > > > > > ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From ClayC Wed Nov 3 11:42:30 1999 Received: from suprahwy.supra.com (suprahwy.supra.com [205.229.114.11]) by mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/mcfeeley.mc-1.26) with ESMTP id LAA16095 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:42:25 -0600 (CST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by suprahwy.supra.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA03313 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 09:42:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from supra.com(dogbert.supra.com 10.11.0.21) by suprahwy.supra.com via smap (V2.0) from ; id xma003304; Wed, 3 Nov 99 09:41:57 -0800 Received: from vanmail3.van.diamondmm.com by dogbert.supra.com id aa08448; 3 Nov 99 9:41 PST Received: by vanmail3.van.diamondmm.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 09:41:56 -0800 Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist '" Subject: RE: New Vector Monitor Project: DEFLECTION SCHEMATIC FOR REVIEW Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 09:41:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Couple thoughts... I was playing with TVS (Transient Voltage Suppressors) parts a while back as a form of input protection on older WG6100 (and similar) monitors. They might be a worthy option for your input clamping. Super-fast turn-on, high current, bidirectional... It looks to me like they could easily thwart the dreaded "dead at max deflection" problem. One other idea from a few years back-- why not add a "smart" spot killer/supervisor? Just a little microcontroller and a couple fast comparitors or a lit