From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Sep 1 06:51:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 06:50:48 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <340AE511.2D81 > Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 08:53:53 -0700 From: John Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02GoldC-BLS20 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Amplifone HV References: <9708291624.AA05945@maileng3> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Joseph J. Welser wrote: > > Fellow vector posse, > > I just swapped an Amplifone back into my Quantum, and have made the > determination that my HV transformer is bad (surprise, surprise.) > > The only reason why I post this is because of all the mention of > the BLACK HV transformers being indestructable, and this is the kind we're > talking about here.... > > I have good +-24V. I measured the following voltages (rounded) on the > BU406D (which I tested, and it looks good) B: -24V, E: -24V, C: +24V > > Now, having a Vbe of ~0 surprised me at first, but it seems that the > BU406D has an internal resistor between the Base and Emitter. The other thing > that sounds off warning bells is the 48V Vce. The BU406D was cool to the > touch, and with 48V across that CE junction, I figured it should be at least > warm (if there was any current flowing through it.) > > I'm getting a B+ of like 22V or 23V (I'm sure it's 24V minus the diode > drop of CR3) > > So whaddaya think? I've read Gregg's FAQ, and there isn't much about > the Amplifone in there.... > > Thanks, > > Joe > > BTW: If I didn't mention it explicitly, I'm not getting any high voltage. I > don't hear a high-pitched tone, or a crackle, or anything from the HV unit. I would check the base of the BU406D for a signal. The problem is probably in the switching section, or with the coupling transformer. I do not have the schematic here with me at the moment, but, check these things to be sure. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Sep 1 07:16:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 07:16:51 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <340AEB2D.1F92 > Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 09:19:57 -0700 From: John Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02GoldC-BLS20 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: G08's and inductive kick References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Al Kossow wrote: > > Talking to the guy in the next cube, the NPN-NPN design of the G08 > will have a problem with inductive kick in one direction that the > PNP/NPN designs won't have. > > He also thought that the relatively low voltage ratings of the > 3716/19 might make this a problem for the WG as well. > > The other thing he was wondering if you only drove the output > transistors from the unregulated supply or the diff amp and > pre driver as well. If the negative rail isn't well regulated > in the diff amp, you are going to inject a whole bunch of noise > through the current source. Would it be possible to design a new deflection circuit using 2 N-channel MOSFETS as the drivers? I work on amplifers for home and autos, and I have seen some interesting designs on amps. Bose has an amp that is a switching type. Its very small in size, but, it runs cool and creates a lot of signal. Infinity uses a digital switching amp with mosfet outputs as well. These types of amps have a very low floor noise and a nice dynamic range. Not that dynamic range is a very important feature for a deflection circuit. The ability to handle large amounts of voltage and current with low distortion should be a plus though. Just my half-a-cents worth. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Sep 1 07:49:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 07:49:10 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <340AF2C0.D6D > Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 09:52:16 -0700 From: John Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02GoldC-BLS20 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: G08's and inductive kick References: <2.2.16.19970829172106.136f20e8@pop3.concentric.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Zonn wrote: > > At 04:26 PM 8/29/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I'll bet removing those resistors and replacing the > >voltage with regulated voltages could possibly give a nice solid display > >without having to have, high power, low voltage, regulation. > > > >yup.. that's what they did in the ampliphone. > > > >We also just figured out what the two multipliers do in the WG vector > >generator design; they multiply the square of the opposite channel's > >deflection value, scaled down by a voltage divider to the channel's > >value prior to it being scaled by the pot/VDR linearity circuit. > > I posted somewhere what those things were doing, if I wasn't so lazy I'd > have written a FAQ or something. > > >From reading a lot of different sources I found that in some yoke/CRT shape > combinations (especially the older tubes/yokes) there is an affect where the > farther from the center of your CRT the beam is, the more affect the yoke > has on moving it. I never really was able to find out why, maybe something > to do with the inverse square law and the distance from the gun and the high > voltage attracting the electrons. The farther the distance the less > attractive force, leading to more "blooming". Blooming is usually caused by low high voltage. Lower the voltage, and the electrons are less attracted to the plate. The picture will look expanded. Whatever the reason, since > the diagonal corners are farther from the gun than the center of the screen, > as the beam moves from the top left corner down towards the lower left > corner it has reaches a point in the center of the screen where the beam > travels the least distance It is almost the same distance from the electron gun to the mask. The mask and front of the tube is curved to allow for this. It uses less voltage to repel the electron (with the yoke) in the center of the screen. The yoke has to get more signal to make the curve where the neck meets the rest of the tube or deflect the electron from the HV plate. and the yoke has less affect, so the beam is not > deflected as far. Then as it continues its travel when it finally makes it > to the lower left hand corner it is now farthest away and the yoke has the > most affect on the beam you end up with the: > > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > > affect. Since the affect of the X axis is dependent upon the position of > the Y axis the correction circuit for X is based on Y. I guess since the > top and bottom of the screen are closer to the guns there is less of this > sort of effect. I noticed on Tempest they have the pincussioning correction > for the X and Y axis and have disabled the Y axis correction by not > populating some resistors. > > The linearity corrects the same problem. Blooming at the edges. Since the > beam has farther to travel towards the edges, the yoke has a greater affect > and things would get bigger towards the edges if not corrected for. > > I don't know why B&W monitors and the newer Color tubes are less affected by > pincussioning, but are still affected by blooming, except that I've read it > has to do with the design of the tube/yoke combination. Newer tubes are shorter on the back of the tube.Less distance for the electron to travel and B&W tubes do not have three guns to deal with. Trying to get the triad or three colors to go through the mask is more difficult than a single beam. They've obviously > extended the distance between the guns and the front of the screen in > amplifone tubes, the would decrease the distance ratio between the edges of > the tube and center, maybe that helps. I've noticed all tubes in the newer > raster displays (there are no *new* X/Y monitors :^( ) have the bulbous > length of the amplifone tube, this must help them to deal with pincussioning. > > -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Sep 1 10:03:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 10:03:37 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 10:03:33 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: G08's and inductive kick Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Would it be possible to design a new deflection circuit using 2 N-channel MOSFETS as the drivers?" --- I suspect the designs you're mentioning are actually PWM (class D) designs. These designs weren't practical before the invention of fast high current MOSFET drivers, so the deflection amps of the early 80's used class AB output drivers. Most of the power in the output stage is dissipated as heat in the deflection amp output transistors (and the fairly high resistance of the current to voltage conversion resistor in the return path of the yoke. Modern designs use a higher gain error amplifier and a must lower value sense resistor. Considering the voltages and currents involved (especially the G08) at high input voltages the deflection transistors must dump over 100 watts of power into the heat sinks. Zonn and I were exchanging email last week and we suspect what actually is taking out the output transistors is base-emitter breakdown from the inductive kickback of the yoke when the direction of current flow is reversed, which was why I wanted to try to set up a deflection amp on the bench to see what happens to the yoke voltages at fast switching rates. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Sep 1 11:05:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:04:59 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <340B20A2.62A1 > Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 13:08:03 -0700 From: John Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02GoldC-BLS20 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: G08's and inductive kick References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Al Kossow wrote: > > Would it be possible to design a new deflection circuit using 2 > N-channel MOSFETS as the drivers?" > > --- > > I suspect the designs you're mentioning are actually PWM (class D) > designs. These designs weren't practical before the invention of fast > high current MOSFET drivers, so the deflection amps of the early 80's > used class AB output drivers. Most of the power in the output stage > is dissipated as heat in the deflection amp output transistors (and > the fairly high resistance of the current to voltage conversion > resistor in the return path of the yoke. Modern designs use a higher > gain error amplifier and a must lower value sense resistor. > > Considering the voltages and currents involved (especially the G08) > at high input voltages the deflection transistors must dump over 100 > watts of power into the heat sinks. > > Zonn and I were exchanging email last week and we suspect what actually > is taking out the output transistors is base-emitter breakdown from > the inductive kickback of the yoke when the direction of current flow > is reversed, which was why I wanted to try to set up a deflection amp > on the bench to see what happens to the yoke voltages at fast switching > rates. But I think newer mosfets with faster switching and a lower rDS specs should work. Getting the correct impedence matching to the yoke will be a little tricky. Do you know the slew rates on the x/y deflection circuits? Maybe I will find a little time to do some experiments with this as well. You guys have my brain cooking now. Thanks. Let me know what you find on the counter electromotive force on the yoke. Other things I would like to know: 1) The resonance frequency of the yoke. 2) Phasing difference of voltage and current. In the yoke, the voltage should preceed the current by 90 degrees. But, what happens to this as you approach resonance and at what frequency? You should see the phase angle inverse I would think when it switches from one transistor to the other. In other words when the current is reversed. This could cause the other transistor to get over biased and saturate. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Sep 1 11:37:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:37:28 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:37:25 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: yoke resonant frequency Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist "1) The resonance frequency of the yoke." -- we made a simple model last week and swept it from 0 - 10khz --- .067 uF - 150 --+-- 3 -- gnd +-------.5 mH -----+ the circuit was flat from DC, dropping by 3db at 1khz this is a rough aproximation of the horizontal deflection in a G08. I forgot to write this down, but I think the RC kicked in at around 50khz. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Sep 1 11:47:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:47:03 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:46:59 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: another WG data point Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist I was going to try firing up my Quantum with the spare WG that I had bought and discovered that the neck broke during shipment (I never unpacked it..) soo.. here's another set of values for H and V inductance Triad-Utrad 9A2806-001C yel-blk .690 mH 17-8150 red-blu .889 mH my guess is the nominal values are .7 and .9mH, respectively which is quite a bit higher than the .4 and .5 of the G08 From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Sep 1 14:03:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 14:02:58 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <340B4A5A.2869 > Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 16:06:02 -0700 From: John Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02GoldC-BLS20 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Al Kossow wrote: > > "1) The resonance frequency of the yoke." > > -- > > we made a simple model last week and swept it from 0 - 10khz > > --- .067 uF - 150 --+-- 3 -- gnd > +-------.5 mH -----+ > You are saying that the -3db downpoint is at 1khz and it continues to fall off logarithmically after this? Did you notice a point where the signal went over 0 (zero) db at all? > the circuit was flat from DC, dropping by 3db at 1khz > > this is a rough aproximation of the horizontal deflection in > a G08. I forgot to write this down, but I think the RC kicked > in at around 50khz. Was this taken from the coil on the tube as well? From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Sep 1 14:08:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 14:08:21 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <340B4B9E.22DD > Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 16:11:26 -0700 From: John Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02GoldC-BLS20 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: another WG data point References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Al Kossow wrote: > > I was going to try firing up my Quantum with the spare WG that I had bought > and discovered that the neck broke during shipment (I never unpacked it..) > > soo.. here's another set of values for H and V inductance > > Triad-Utrad > 9A2806-001C yel-blk .690 mH > 17-8150 red-blu .889 mH > > my guess is the nominal values are .7 and .9mH, respectively > which is quite a bit higher than the .4 and .5 of the G08 Probably explains why the GO8 draws more current on the outputs. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Sep 1 14:10:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 14:10:48 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 14:10:45 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist this was just a computer simulation of the (simple) model I drew in my last message. What i'm going to do this week is use the WG deflection board to drive a WG yoke to see what the actual deflection amp characteristics are. I will also try driving a G08 yoke with the appropriate component changes (not at normal voltages, obviously..) to try to determine its characteristics too. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Sep 2 08:28:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 08:27:34 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <340C30FA.65F5 > Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 09:30:02 -0600 From: Jess Askey Organization: Believe me, I have none!! X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: Major Havoc -> Tempest Adapter Schematic References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Al Kossow wrote: > > Could someone scan in the schematic for the adapter board > to put a Major Havoc into a Tempest? I've noticed there are > subtle tweeks to the multiplier values for the different > game implementations, and was wondering if this circuit was > identical to that on a Tempest. I cannot seem to find either of my schems for the conversion board anywhere. Maybe they are at home. Soon, Soon. -- Jess M. Askey Unofficial Atari Game Page ESLB/The Audio Analyst http://links.magenta.com/havoc 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B Laramie WY 82070 Shop: (307)721-9001 From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Sep 2 10:26:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:26:12 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 97 10:32 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970902102857.11674478@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist From: Zonn Subject: Re: G08's and inductive kick Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist At 09:52 AM 9/1/97 -0700, John Lee wrote: >Zonn wrote: >> >> At 04:26 PM 8/29/97 -0700, you wrote: >> >I'll bet removing those resistors and replacing the >> >voltage with regulated voltages could possibly give a nice solid display >> >without having to have, high power, low voltage, regulation. >> > >> >yup.. that's what they did in the ampliphone. >> > >> >We also just figured out what the two multipliers do in the WG vector >> >generator design; they multiply the square of the opposite channel's >> >deflection value, scaled down by a voltage divider to the channel's >> >value prior to it being scaled by the pot/VDR linearity circuit. >> >> I posted somewhere what those things were doing, if I wasn't so lazy I'd >> have written a FAQ or something. >> >> >From reading a lot of different sources I found that in some yoke/CRT shape >> combinations (especially the older tubes/yokes) there is an affect where the >> farther from the center of your CRT the beam is, the more affect the yoke >> has on moving it. I never really was able to find out why, maybe something >> to do with the inverse square law and the distance from the gun and the high >> voltage attracting the electrons. The farther the distance the less >> attractive force, leading to more "blooming". > >Blooming is usually caused by low high voltage. Lower the voltage, and >the electrons are >less attracted to the plate. The picture will look expanded. That's useful information but I was simply describing the effect all picture tubes have of enlarging things when they are drawn toward edges of their screens, not a symptom of a badly operating monitor. Call it what you like, the bloom effect is always present and must be compensated for, and depending upon the design of the tube/yoke it can also lead to pincussioning. As for the edge expansion, to correct for this effect Atari used VDRs, Sega used their custom IC, Cinematronics used an array of diodes and resistors in the feedback loop of an op-amp. Raster displays must also compensate for this and I'm sure there's as many ways as there are monitors for doing this. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Sep 2 10:37:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:37:29 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 97 10:43 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970902104015.0e6ffd90@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist From: Zonn Subject: Re: G08's and inductive kick Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist At 04:26 PM 8/29/97 -0700, you wrote: >I'll bet removing those resistors and replacing the >voltage with regulated voltages could possibly give a nice solid display >without having to have, high power, low voltage, regulation. > >yup.. that's what they did in the ampliphone. I went through my Amplifone schematics this weekend and I couldn't find where they were regulating the voltage going to the error amp. My schematic shows the same resistors the WG has connected directly to the filter capacitors of the low voltage (and in Amplifones case, unregulated) power supply. The only regulators I find are the ones used to regulate the HV supply. Do we have different schematics? Or are we talking about different things? -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Sep 2 10:45:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:45:58 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:45:54 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: G08's and inductive kick Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist "The only regulators I find are the ones used to regulate the HV supply. Do we have different schematics? Or are we talking about different things?" my mistake, there is no regulator on the deflection board, must have been combining the WG and Ampliphone designs in my head when I said that.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Sep 2 11:03:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:03:46 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:04:29 -0800 To: vectorlist From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Major Havoc -> Tempest Adapter Schematic Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist >Could someone scan in the schematic for the adapter board >to put a Major Havoc into a Tempest? I've noticed there are >subtle tweeks to the multiplier values for the different >game implementations, and was wondering if this circuit was >identical to that on a Tempest. I've got a few variations on this if Jess doesn't get around to it. It's very close to Tempest. I think it's almost identical-- it's been a while since I tinkered with it. I actually have it breadboarded up and running, but with other projects always getting in the queue... >Also, does anyone have any opinions why the Quantum PCB >HAS the XY correction circuit, when it shipped with an >Ampliphone monitor? Beats me. Did Atari actually populate it? (Haven't seen a real Quantum board.) On another note... Have any of you tried removing the VDR's from the output section of the AVG and seen the effect it has on the display? I did this on a Space Duel and couldn't notice the difference-- however, I was only running it on a scope, which masks a LOT of little details compared to the big monitors. Does the VDR prevent some blooming as the deflection gets larger? (I'm trying to remember Al's IE curve from last week.) Anyone know where to get VDR's like those that Atari used? My quick search through Newark came up empty. Maybe EE Master has a source... Related topic-- anyone have the tube characteristics for the CRT used in the WG vector monitor (I think it's the same as the GO-7?). Stuff like heater voltage, gun voltages, screen and grid, etc.? I wonder if it might be possible to swap tubes with a modern 19-27" tube and keep the deflection yoke, but get the benefit the no curvature... Worst case I suppose it would require a new (or modified?) neck board and HV unit. Probably want to stay away from Sony tubes since the aperature grille would mess with vertical vectors, but some standard shadow mask type thing like a flat Panasonic or Toshiba would be neat. (Nice dark phosphor coat too...) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Sep 2 11:39:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:38:56 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 97 11:45 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970902114141.30bfaec8@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist From: Zonn Subject: Re: Major Havoc -> Tempest Adapter Schematic Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist At 11:04 AM 9/2/97 -0800, you wrote: >>Could someone scan in the schematic for the adapter board >>to put a Major Havoc into a Tempest? I've noticed there are >>subtle tweeks to the multiplier values for the different >>game implementations, and was wondering if this circuit was >>identical to that on a Tempest. > >I've got a few variations on this if Jess doesn't get around to it. > >It's very close to Tempest. I think it's almost identical-- it's been a >while since I tinkered with it. I actually have it breadboarded up and >running, but with other projects always getting in the queue... > >>Also, does anyone have any opinions why the Quantum PCB >>HAS the XY correction circuit, when it shipped with an >>Ampliphone monitor? > >Beats me. Did Atari actually populate it? (Haven't seen a real Quantum board.) > >On another note... Have any of you tried removing the VDR's from the >output section of the AVG and seen the effect it has on the display? I did >this on a Space Duel and couldn't notice the difference-- however, I was >only running it on a scope, which masks a LOT of little details compared to >the big monitors. The problem with the scope is that it doesn't have the non-linearities of the CRT (wouldn't be much of a scope if it did!) so things should actually look better without the VDR's on a scope. It's similar to looking at the output of a Tempest on a scope. Looks ok on a WG monitor, but on a scope you see all the bowing of the edges used to compensate for the pincussioning of the WG monitor. >Does the VDR prevent some blooming as the deflection gets larger? (I'm >trying to remember Al's IE curve from last week.) Anyone know where to get >VDR's like those that Atari used? My quick search through Newark came up >empty. Maybe EE Master has a source... According to a technition working at Cinematronics at the time, they couldn't find them either which is why they designed around them (using an op-amp of course!) I haven't traced out the circuit so I don't know what they did. > >Related topic-- anyone have the tube characteristics for the CRT used in >the WG vector monitor (I think it's the same as the GO-7?). Stuff like >heater voltage, gun voltages, screen and grid, etc.? I wonder if it might >be possible to swap tubes with a modern 19-27" tube and keep the deflection >yoke, but get the benefit the no curvature... Worst case I suppose it >would require a new (or modified?) neck board and HV unit. Probably want >to stay away from Sony tubes since the aperature grille would mess with >vertical vectors, but some standard shadow mask type thing like a flat >Panasonic or Toshiba would be neat. (Nice dark phosphor coat too...) Alright Clay!!! Now we're talkin'!! This is one of my long term goals (Just ask Steve O. -- I keep threatening to do this! Yes Steve, a laser based system would be best, but how about colors? Talk about a convergence nightmare! Not to mentions costs! ;^) To have that new flat Panasonic display running vectors would be way cool! I've gone through some of the same thoughts. Won't even touch a Trinitron. I haven't popped off the back of my Panasonic TV to see if any yoke will even slip over the neck. I'm guessing an Ampliphone yoke would give the best results, since I'm assuming they've done away with the pincussioning problem in the tube's design. Of course the opposite could be true, the reason screens were round was to cut down on, mostly focusing problems, but it would also help with the pincussioning. Maybe they just let it pincussion all it wants and then designed around it in hardware. Considering how flat the tube is, and how that was always a problem in the past, I'm wondering if they've come up with some custom IC stuff to deal with a possible non-linearities of a flat tube, that would be a drag. I'd be willing to live with size changes throughout the screen, but my biggest fear is how much trouble it's going to be to converge the thing! Of course this is after figuring out how to use the power supply in the TV to run the much higher HV voltage & focus, and surely higher plate voltages. I was thinking that by simply removing the TV's yoke and leaving it hooked up to the circuit (just tie wrap it off somewhere), you could leave the TV running the standard *blue* screen it defaults to with no input, thereby supplying all the HV voltages. Since the RGB transistors are running open collector on the Amplifone (or WG) circuits maybe they could drive whatever the voltages needed by the new CRT would be, or maybe the TV's RGB outputs could be tapped into. I haven't done *any* experiments with any of this, but it sure is a great idea! -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Sep 2 11:48:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:46:52 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:47:47 -0800 To: vectorlist From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: G08's and inductive kick Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist >We also just figured out what the two multipliers do in the WG vector >generator design; they multiply the square of the opposite channel's >deflection value, scaled down by a voltage divider to the channel's >value prior to it being scaled by the pot/VDR linearity circuit. Oh, sorry, I could have saved you some time on that. I worked through all the equations on the 1495's (based on the resistor values) a while back. One 1495 squares the input voltage (thus getting a "positive" number proportional to the beam's distance from the center of the screen) and multiplies it against a scalar value to keep it within the voltage range of the supplies. The second 1495 then takes the new "correction" factor and multiplies it against the second input voltage. The second input voltage still carries the "sign" (positive or negative voltage) and just picks up the scalar value from the first 1495. The product is the "corrected" aspect ration. -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Sep 2 12:20:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:20:29 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 97 12:26 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970902122314.307732b0@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_873228194==_" To: vectorlist From: Zonn Subject: Some ROMS... X-Attachments: C:\CINEMU\ROMS\STARCAS3.ZIP; C:\CINEMU\ROMS\ARMORP.ZIP; Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist --=====================_873228194==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I had some Star Castle, Version 3, ROMs sent to me by John DeGroof and Al Kossow about a week ago. It seems John noticed the his ROMs that were labeled with a V3 did not match those on the net. I had never heard of a Version 3 of Star Castle, of course all I had to do was ask Steve O. He'd heard of them, even had a little history of when and why there were released. I guess operators were complaining that people were playing for too long. So they beefed it up a little. This confirms what I found out before talking to Steve. The version 3 is definitely more aggressive. Check out the speed of the fireball that gets launched when you knock down enough castle walls! Funny thing is that this is the way I remembered Star Castle. All this time I was thinking "Gee my reaction time must have speeded up as I got older! This game used to completely kick my ass, now it only kinda kicks my ass!" Delusions come pretty easy to me. Oh well, thanks a lot John for making me feel old again! Since I don't know how to publish the ROMs (I can't put them on my homepage because of the emulator), I'll just send them out here. I'm sure they'll get around. I've also included the proto-type version of Armor Attack. I can't find any playing differences, we did find the morse code sounds to be different than the released version, I'll let you guys play with that. Both ROM sets run fine on the emulator, though this won't help with decoding the Armor Attack sounds, since I haven't got around to adding sound to the emulator yet. -Zonn --=====================_873228194==_ Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="STARCAS3.ZIP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="STARCAS3.ZIP" UEsDBBQAAgAIALatGSNNL7z2owYAAAAIAAALAAAAU1RBUkNBUzMuUDdtVHtsU9cZ//wIOCQkIHVS VbH23ACFbZrAaeljQpvjPPyInUTbHz7Gd7nFsO6lbS3tRtd2anfvRY59bRz6SFf+qLCdxMYxzKGF kKQp2kOrqvkPbHPt2HHsUbqTJdepmFoNadLWnevABtKsc+45937+ft/r932vGs3AEmMvvvrmmxqf sSCXLvpREQ7pRM3nMHYSFQdcLkiRofv2ezpSRSeOENenEHiGNcZMwIy+Rd54Y3QPyzjw6CjKn3rt dbk4PhS6Oi9839LqiSvKiBw9GgwRDTrqjpGaRni6t9Uz2fjsbXz2uiOkBkFhZDu6SD4dEozT1nkz Ns2ZcdYObM85BRbIkfZbq3sh9Pe5fiwX7VfWSDi4GN6BakNOfCMdLC2haoRhUfWUcoaUp3u2DRs1 ffh36gtk89X8cjYbqXNBtIhK2hM2fL6kexBua9PAx3txVKiFOlRUu/bLPPdbB7CdGrYX2BuhP6Ba nHhnNDVU/Ta10I9REOijqkCwZNMe57ntodc2FMNU0TTywRoB/elQdF5z7oLmTGnDCMXL/Q+vC1h4 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Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Alltronics (they advertise in NutsNVolts, and they're local for me) had them for around $4.50. So much for needing diode values. Now all I have to do is wait for Wintron to get some flybacks back in stock From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Sep 2 15:14:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:14:38 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 97 15:20 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970902151721.21175a00@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist From: Zonn Subject: Re: BU406D's found! Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist At 03:08 PM 9/2/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Alltronics (they advertise in NutsNVolts, and they're local for me) >had them for around $4.50. So much for needing diode values. > >Now all I have to do is wait for Wintron to get some flybacks back in >stock I was under the impression Wintron winds the transformers after they receive your order. I believe that's what they told Gaymond, but I could have misunderstood. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Sep 2 16:09:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:09:09 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <340C9D30.3210 > Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 17:11:44 -0600 From: Jess Askey Organization: Believe me, I have none!! X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: BU406D's found! References: <2.2.16.19970902151721.21175a00@pop3.concentric.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Zonn wrote: > > At 03:08 PM 9/2/97 -0700, you wrote: > > > >Alltronics (they advertise in NutsNVolts, and they're local for me) > >had them for around $4.50. So much for needing diode values. > > > >Now all I have to do is wait for Wintron to get some flybacks back in > >stock > > I was under the impression Wintron winds the transformers after they receive > your order. I believe that's what they told Gaymond, but I could have > misunderstood. > > -Zonn When I talked to them it sounded like they did a batch at a time. Around 25-50 of them at a time. I didn't know they were out though. They had 8 left about 2 months ago so I guess that makes sense. jess -- Jess M. Askey Unofficial Atari Game Page ESLB/The Audio Analyst http://links.magenta.com/havoc 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B Laramie WY 82070 Shop: (307)721-9001 From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Sep 2 16:14:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:14:30 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970902160411.007562c0 > X-Sender: sswazey X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 16:04:11 -0700 To: vectorlist From: Scott Swazey Subject: Wintron HV stock (was Re: BU406D's found!) In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19970902151721.21175a00@pop3.concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist At 03:20 PM 9/2/97 PDT, you wrote: >At 03:08 PM 9/2/97 -0700, you wrote: >> >>Alltronics (they advertise in NutsNVolts, and they're local for me) >>had them for around $4.50. So much for needing diode values. >> >>Now all I have to do is wait for Wintron to get some flybacks back in >>stock > >I was under the impression Wintron winds the transformers after they receive >your order. I believe that's what they told Gaymond, but I could have >misunderstood. > >-Zonn The sales rep at Wintron told me that they build in small lots (25 I think). I bought the last one in stock (sorry Al) two weeks ago (ordered it on 8/20 & got it on 8/25). -Scott Scott Swazey QUALCOMM Incorporated Work: (619) 657-2419 mailto:sswazey V-209H Pager:(619) 683-5210 From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Sep 2 17:21:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 17:21:32 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <340CCA62.4108 > Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 19:24:34 -0700 From: John Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02GoldC-BLS20 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7F9115D129D" Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7F9115D129D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Al Kossow wrote: > > this was just a computer simulation of the (simple) model I drew > in my last message. What i'm going to do this week is use the WG > deflection board to drive a WG yoke to see what the actual deflection > amp characteristics are. I will also try driving a G08 yoke with the > appropriate component changes (not at normal voltages, obviously..) > to try to determine its characteristics too. Al, Here is a shortened up schematic of when I was talking about using mosfets for the outputs to drive the yoke on the GO8. It uses MTW20N50E mosfets. On the subject of the kickback on the yoke, I replied with what I thought was the second question on a couple of replies ago. It basically is a question of the dampning factor like in an audio amp. If you see some of the counter EMF or kickback, its like an amp with poor dampning. 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frequency Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist re: damping factor the image you sent was at too low a resolution to make much out, but a few things i've noticed is: 1) there is no output protection, or sense resistor for feedback 2) there is no damping at all across the yoke (it will have the same gate-drain breakdown problems that the present design has 3) the voltage rating of the MOSFETS will have to be the sum of the supply rails. for a class AB driver, my cube neighbor suggested the LT1166 Power Output Stage Automatic Bias System. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Sep 2 18:55:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 18:55:09 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <340CE056.C2 > Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 20:58:14 -0700 From: John Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02GoldC-BLS20 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Al Kossow wrote: > > re: damping factor > > the image you sent was at too low a resolution to make much out, but > a few things i've noticed is: > > 1) there is no output protection, or sense resistor for feedback > 2) there is no damping at all across the yoke (it will have the > same gate-drain breakdown problems that the present design has > 3) the voltage rating of the MOSFETS will have to be the sum of > the supply rails. > > for a class AB driver, my cube neighbor suggested the LT1166 Power > Output Stage Automatic Bias System. The drawing was a simplistic way of using mosfets. I just sketched the output configuration. There is an arrow pointing to the diff amp for the feedback. I just did not draw the rest of the circuit at all. The only problem I have with a class AB is zero cross ref problems. Even if there is a lot of feedback, you will probably still have problems. As you approach zero on the input, you will have some distortion. I guess I am looking at this like an amplifier and a speaker . Hence, if using a class AB the output stage is held at the threshold of the on state. If a small signal is applied, it will show some distortion. As you increase the volume or signal, the distortion is less appearant because you are biasing the output stage to the on state more but, there are also transient noises from the transistors turning on and off. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Sep 2 19:17:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 19:17:47 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 19:17:43 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist re: crossover distortion given the designs of the existing amplifiers, it appears that crossover distortion isn't a problem (at least the exiting designs don't deal with it correctly) if you get a chance, take a look at the LT1166 part; it looks like just what is needed to drive a complimentary MOSFET pair. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Sep 2 22:50:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 22:50:45 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <340CFBE0.85612786@istar.ca> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 22:55:45 -0700 From: John Robertson Organization: John's Jukes Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: BU406D's found! References: <2.2.16.19970902151721.21175a00@pop3.concentric.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Hi, all! In my communication with Wintron, they only wind the transformer on orders, that is why they ask so much for a single one, it includes the setup charge...if you can get about twenty people to gether the price drops somewhat (they asked me NOT to quote prices) however the cost is still somewhat high. They will provide quotes to anyone that is interested, they only ask that you keep it somewhat confidential, ei: not post in a newsgroup or mailing list. I tried to get enough folks interested about a year ago to have 50 made, thus I could have about ten spares and others would get them at just over cost (hey I do run a business after all) but if some hobbiest with $10KUS available wishes to take a shot at it...(Is Bill Gates in this list??) John :-#)# Zonn wrote: > At 03:08 PM 9/2/97 -0700, you wrote: > > > >Alltronics (they advertise in NutsNVolts, and they're local for me) > >had them for around $4.50. So much for needing diode values. > > > >Now all I have to do is wait for Wintron to get some flybacks back in > >stock > > I was under the impression Wintron winds the transformers after they receive > your order. I believe that's what they told Gaymond, but I could have > misunderstood. > > -Zonn -- (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) | John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St. VOICE (604)872-5757 FAX 872-2010| Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 mailto:jrr "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 05:30:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 05:30:23 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <340D7538.6A4B > Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 07:33:28 -0700 From: John Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02GoldC-BLS20 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Al Kossow wrote: > > re: crossover distortion > > given the designs of the existing amplifiers, it appears that crossover > distortion isn't a problem (at least the exiting designs don't deal with > it correctly) > > if you get a chance, take a look at the LT1166 part; it looks like just > what is needed to drive a complimentary MOSFET pair. Al, I will wait and see what you come up with on your test on the WG and GO8. This is getting interesting to me now. I have even delayed my progress on my race car. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 06:53:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 06:53:22 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199709031353.JAA12438@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency To: vectorlist Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:53:24 -0500 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <340CE056.C2 > from "John Lee" at Sep 2, 97 08:58:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Hello, Just a thought... Back in high school I took an old TV and ran wires from the yoke to a connector on the back. I plugged the speaked outputs of a (really) cheap stereo in there and "watched" some music. It was a 13 inch TV and a 5W/channel amp and I was able to get full deflection (at least on the lows). So, would it be possible to just throw an LM12 or possibly a smaller audio amp at the yoke [LM12 is basically a massive op-amp. was it 50 or 100W]? BTW, the yoke I used had 8ohms (DC) on one winding and 32 on the other which had a center tap - I cut that one and put the 2 halves in parallel to get 8ohms total. That was of course before I had a clue about the word "impedance" :-) Oh well, it worked nicely and all my friends started hacking apart old TVs. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 07:39:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 07:39:17 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:41:41 -0500 From: jwelser (Joseph J. Welser) Message-Id: <9709031441.AA00278@maileng3> To: vectorlist Subject: Re: BU406D's found! Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist > When I talked to them it sounded like they did a batch at a time. Around > 25-50 of them at a time. I didn't know they were out though. They had 8 > left about 2 months ago so I guess that makes sense. > jess I just ordered 2 HV transformers from Wintron on Friday. Rose told me that they make them in batches of 25. They had just sold their last one on Thursday, and were making a batch of 5 or 6 more because that's all the materials that they had on hand (They were ordering more materials.) Those 5 or 6 (of which I already bought 2) would be ready on Sept. 16 I didn't ask when the next batch of 25 would be ready... Joe From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 08:28:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 08:28:40 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 03 Sep 1997 11:26 EDT To: vectorlist From: "Gregg Woodcock" Subject: re:BU406D's found! Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist In message "BU406D's found!", you write: > >Alltronics (they advertise in NutsNVolts, and they're local for me) >had them for around $4.50. So much for needing diode values. > >Now all I have to do is wait for Wintron to get some flybacks back in >stock David Shoemaker discovered that BU406D is available from Computer Component Source for $1.99 each (1.69 each for 12+ quantities; the minimum order is $20). They can be reached at 1-800-356-1227 (voice) and 1-800-926-2062 (fax). They are going to want a tax ID # for the order but maybe you can talk them out of that if you don't have one. Worldwide Components Network also lists them (no price given); try them at 201-854-4617. -- THANX...Gregg day 214.684.7380 night UNLIST/PUBL TEXAS NOT CANADA! woodcock or woodcock@dfwmm.net *CLASSIC VIDEOGAME COLLECTOR BUY/SELL/TRADE NON-COMPUTER (ARCADE/HOME)* "If you quote me on this I'll have to deny it; I won't remember because I have such a bad memory. Not only that, but my memory is *terrible*." From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 08:38:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 08:38:15 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 08:39:14 -0800 To: vectorlist From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist > Back in high school I took an old TV and ran wires from the yoke to >a connector on the back. I plugged the speaked outputs of a (really) cheap >stereo in there and "watched" some music. It was a 13 inch TV and a >5W/channel amp and I was able to get full deflection (at least on the lows). >So, would it be possible to just throw an LM12 or possibly a smaller audio >amp at the yoke [LM12 is basically a massive op-amp. was it 50 or 100W]? So I take it you disconnected the yoke from the vertical and horizontal drive of the TV chassis? "Usually" that will be the end of *something* in the horizontal section on most monitors since they're relying on the horizontal retrace conduction path through the horizontal yoke windings to kick the flyback. JoelR and I did some of this a couple years back with audio amps and stock raster monitors and yokes with limited success. (Once again, driven by the idea of my old Asteroids-clone monitor that was using two STK0050 audio amps for driving the output coils... I *really* need to take that thing apart and see how it works...) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 08:58:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 08:58:02 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:00:23 -0500 From: jwelser (Joseph J. Welser) Message-Id: <9709031600.AA00366@maileng3> To: vectorlist Subject: re:BU406D's found! Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist > David Shoemaker discovered that BU406D is > available from Computer Component Source for $1.99 each (1.69 each for > 12+ quantities; the minimum order is $20). They can be reached at > 1-800-356-1227 (voice) and 1-800-926-2062 (fax). They are going to want > a tax ID # for the order but maybe you can talk them out of that if you > don't have one. Worldwide Components Network also lists them (no price > given); try them at 201-854-4617. CCS DOESN'T need a taxpayer ID number. I ordered a dozen BU406Ds from them 2 or 3 weeks ago. I just told them I was a private customer, and it was no problem. No "talking out of" was necessary. I found their salsperson to be very friendly, and helpful (Of course I was a bit biased because I was overjoyed about getting my BU406Ds) and when I got the CCS catalog I saw that they carry what seems to be every computer monitor flyback known to man. It makes me wonder if any of those could be used for any XY monitors (Like the W.G. which basically has no available replacement) Hey Clay, didn't you buy "some other" flyback from Jeff Anderson a while back that you were going to try out in a W.G. XY? Any luck? Joe From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 09:13:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:13:27 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:14:19 -0800 To: vectorlist From: Clay Cowgill Subject: re:BU406D's found! Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist > Hey Clay, didn't you buy "some other" flyback from Jeff Anderson a >while >back that you were going to try out in a W.G. XY? Any luck? I don't remember who it was, but someone had run across a palette of what appeared to be NOS Wells-Gardner Color XY Flybacks. Since I had a NOS WG Flyback waiting to go into my monitor I volunteered to compare the two. What I found has to be one of the more cruel jokes in Vector-gamer history... The Flyback looks *exactly* like a color WG flyback, right down to the screen/focus block (and this guy just found 200+ of them!). Alas, the flyback is completely different internally! *sigh* Now that I think about it, maybe I'll go through and test the actual winding values on the Sencore here at work. It definately wasn't "pin compatible", but maybe it's hackable otherwise. (I doubt it though.) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 09:21:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:21:01 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender jenison ) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:20:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9709031120.ZM16057@calcite> In-Reply-To: Clay Cowgill "Re: yoke resonant frequency" (Sep 3, 8:39am) References: <199709031542.LAA15016 > X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist On Sep 3, 8:39am, Clay Cowgill wrote: > Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency [snip talk about monitor stuff that is going way over Mark's head] You guys have discussed a lot of things on this issue, including design, specs, etc. I hope someone is not only archiving these mails, but turning this discussion into some sort of vector monitor document so that someone can apply what has been discussed here. We all know how valuable vector monitors are in regards to arcade game collecting, so I'd like to push the issue that we should start "planning" and begining writing up a "cookbook" on this project with at least what we have now. I've been reading this thread off an on, but what the real issues here? What parts to use? What yoke to use? What flyback to use? Offhand, I'd think if we wanted to build a common XY monitor, wouldn't we want to use parts from a more common monitor? Like somehow figure out how to make a vector monitor using most of the parts from a G07? Or maybe just the tube, yoke and flyback? Maybe just the tube and flyback? Someone please help me understand what's standing in our way so we can identify them, document them, and resolve them. Just trying to get this a little more organized... ________________ ______ ___ _____ __ / __/ / / / |/ / / |/ //|/|/|_______________ Mark Jenison / __/ /_/ / / / | // | / |__ __/ _ /__ \ jenison /___/___/_/_//_/_/_/|_//__|/__| / / / // / / Sega XY FAQ author /_/|_| /_/ /____/_/|_| ________________ The One and Only 4-player vector game From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 09:31:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:30:51 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970903163223.026c6164 > X-Sender: cmoore X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 12:32:23 -0400 To: vectorlist From: "Christopher V. Moore" Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist I've been lurking on this subject for a while and have an armchair engineering question. Has anyone hooked up a spectrum analyzer to see what the spectral content is of the vector signals? With all this talk about hooking up audio amps makes me wonder if this will filter off some of the high end of the signal. I currently don't have any access to good test equipment otherwise I'd do it myself and make a contribution to this list. I did hook up my $10 scope before it broke and saw the, for lack of a better description, sawtooth type wave. Because of that sharp point in the sawtooth, I would think that this signal might have significant harmonics. Chris Moore cmoore -- Christopher V. Moore Heartlab, Inc. - 101 Airport Rd - Westerly, RI 02891 Phone: (401) 596-0592 - Fax: (401) 596-8562 - Email: cmoore From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 09:34:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:34:21 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199709031634.MAA18539@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency To: vectorlist Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:34:26 -0500 (EDT) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Sep 3, 97 08:39:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist > > Back in high school I took an old TV and ran wires from the yoke to > >a connector on the back. I plugged the speaked outputs of a (really) cheap > >stereo in there and "watched" some music. It was a 13 inch TV and a > >5W/channel amp and I was able to get full deflection (at least on the lows). > >So, would it be possible to just throw an LM12 or possibly a smaller audio > >amp at the yoke [LM12 is basically a massive op-amp. was it 50 or 100W]? > > So I take it you disconnected the yoke from the vertical and horizontal > drive of the TV chassis? "Usually" that will be the end of *something* in > the horizontal section on most monitors since they're relying on the > horizontal retrace conduction path through the horizontal yoke windings to > kick the flyback. JoelR and I did some of this a couple years back with > audio amps and stock raster monitors and yokes with limited success. Yes, we just cut the wires and left them hanging. It had occured to me that it might cause the HV to go out, but it didn't in 2 13" BWs and one or two big 25" color TVs (I don't remember what we drove the big ones with, may have been the same cheapo stereo). One thing we never did is figure out how to control the colors - we figured one color for each of 3 frequency ranges would be cool and it would also act as a spot killer when the sound went away (causing the beam to sit in the middle). I really think some type of audio chip should be able to handle deflection in the XY monitors. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 09:36:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:36:57 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:37:47 -0800 To: vectorlist From: Clay Cowgill Subject: BUxxx Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Do any of you have the actual specs/ratings for the BU406D, BU409, BU207, BU208, and BU209? BU208's and BU207's seem to indicate that the ratings increase in this order: BU209, BU208, BU207. (So a BU208 is an OK sub for a 209 and a 207 is an ok sub for the 207.) However, I've never seen "real" specs on these, and the only numbers I have seen were in a catalog, so I'm a little concerned about guessing wrong. (Since 207's and 208's seem relatively common compared to a BU209 I want to see if they're "safe" to substitute or not.) Anyone know the answer, or have access to the specs? (Who did the BUxxx line originally, anyway?) Thanks! -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 10:17:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:17:49 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist > Subject: RE: yoke resonant frequency Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:16:10 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist G'day Mark, Hear, hear! I agree whole heartedly, Mark! If these folks really do want this vector display project to last beyond themselves, they'll have to make a FAQ of some sort. Besides showing what choices were made, it would have to explain what alternatives were considered and discarded. I've been putting something like this together for the next new KLOV team, so they don't have to go down the same roads we did. Steven S Ozdemir sso >---------- >From: Mark Jenison[SMTP:jenison ] >Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 1997 11:20 AM >To: vectorlist >Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency > >On Sep 3, 8:39am, Clay Cowgill wrote: >> Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency > >[snip talk about monitor stuff that is going way over Mark's head] > >You guys have discussed a lot of things on this issue, including design, >specs, >etc. I hope someone is not only archiving these mails, but turning this >discussion into some sort of vector monitor document so that someone can >apply >what has been discussed here. > >We all know how valuable vector monitors are in regards to arcade game >collecting, so I'd like to push the issue that we should start "planning" and >begining writing up a "cookbook" on this project with at least what we have >now. > >I've been reading this thread off an on, but what the real issues here? What >parts to use? What yoke to use? What flyback to use? > >Offhand, I'd think if we wanted to build a common XY monitor, wouldn't we >want >to use parts from a more common monitor? Like somehow figure out how to make >a >vector monitor using most of the parts from a G07? Or maybe just the tube, >yoke and flyback? Maybe just the tube and flyback? > >Someone please help me understand what's standing in our way so we can >identify >them, document them, and resolve them. > >Just trying to get this a little more organized... > >________________ ______ ___ _____ __ > / __/ / / / |/ / / |/ //|/|/|_______________ >Mark Jenison / __/ /_/ / / / | // | / |__ __/ _ /__ \ >jenison /___/___/_/_//_/_/_/|_//__|/__| / / / // / / >Sega XY FAQ author /_/|_| /_/ /____/_/|_| >________________ The One and Only 4-player vector game > > > > > > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 10:19:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:19:47 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <340DB90B.4003 > Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 12:22:52 -0700 From: John Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02GoldC-BLS20 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency References: <199709031542.LAA15016 > <9709031120.ZM16057@calcite> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Mark Jenison wrote: > > On Sep 3, 8:39am, Clay Cowgill wrote: > > Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency > > [snip talk about monitor stuff that is going way over Mark's head] > > You guys have discussed a lot of things on this issue, including design, specs, > etc. I hope someone is not only archiving these mails, but turning this > discussion into some sort of vector monitor document so that someone can apply > what has been discussed here. > > We all know how valuable vector monitors are in regards to arcade game > collecting, so I'd like to push the issue that we should start "planning" and > begining writing up a "cookbook" on this project with at least what we have > now. > > I've been reading this thread off an on, but what the real issues here? What > parts to use? What yoke to use? What flyback to use? > > Offhand, I'd think if we wanted to build a common XY monitor, wouldn't we want > to use parts from a more common monitor? Like somehow figure out how to make a > vector monitor using most of the parts from a G07? Or maybe just the tube, > yoke and flyback? Maybe just the tube and flyback? > > Someone please help me understand what's standing in our way so we can identify > them, document them, and resolve them. > > Just trying to get this a little more organized... > > ________________ ______ ___ _____ __ > / __/ / / / |/ / / |/ //|/|/|_______________ > Mark Jenison / __/ /_/ / / / | // | / |__ __/ _ /__ \ > jenison /___/___/_/_//_/_/_/|_//__|/__| / / / // / / > Sega XY FAQ author /_/|_| /_/ /____/_/|_| > ________________ The One and Only 4-player vector game I would say it is like Wells Gardner, Sega, and Atari trying to design the exact same circuit. Most everyone has their own way of looking at a problem and coming up with different ways of solving it. I would also very much like to see a new deflection board and HV board that would be compatible with all of these monitors. Parts are getting scarce for some of these units, and if you do not have an extiguisher by your GO8, there could be some trouble. I am not an electronic engineer, so all I can do is offer some of working knowledge to getting this underway. As Al pointed out, certain aspects to the design have to be addressed first. I am glad he is finding some time to do research on the current monitor boards used in these games. Finding the usable parimeters and designing to those specs. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 10:32:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:32:13 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender jenison ) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:31:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9709031231.ZM17415@calcite> In-Reply-To: John Lee "Re: yoke resonant frequency" (Sep 3, 12:22pm) References: <199709031542.LAA15016 > <9709031120.ZM16057@calcite> <199709031722.NAA23935 > X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist On Sep 3, 12:22pm, John Lee wrote: > Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency > Mark Jenison wrote: > > > > On Sep 3, 8:39am, Clay Cowgill wrote: > > > Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency > > > > Someone please help me understand what's standing in our way so we can identify > > them, document them, and resolve them. > > > > Just trying to get this a little more organized... > > > > I would say it is like Wells Gardner, Sega, and Atari trying to design > the exact same > circuit. Most everyone has their own way of looking at a problem and > coming up with > different ways of solving it. So is it that the game boards themselves all output different ranges of signals, and that's why monitors can't be switched around from game to game because they are designed for a certain range of signals? If this is the case, don't we just need to make it so all the games output relatively the same range of signals, and then design a vector monitor for this range? > I would also very much like to see a new > deflection > board and HV board that would be compatible with all of these monitors. > Parts are > getting scarce for some of these units, and if you do not have an > extiguisher by your > GO8, there could be some trouble. I'm assuming that whatever we design would have to be completely new, but could use old parts from more common sources (like reuse a tube or a fly back, maybe even a yoke). > I am not an electronic engineer, so > all I can do is > offer some of working knowledge to getting this underway. As Al pointed > out, certain > aspects to the design have to be addressed first. I am glad he is > finding some time to > do research on the current monitor boards used in these games. Finding > the usable > parimeters and designing to those specs. Yes, Al is doing a great job and a great deal of research for this project. It's just that I've seen so many "Thanks for pointing that out" and "I forgot about that" stuff that if we document it, we will remember why we're going in the direction we are, and why we can't go in some directions. (Of course, at some point, someone will have to hack a prototype together...that's when all "theory" goes out the door and the reality of what our design really does will be determined ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 10:32:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:32:24 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:32:20 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist "Offhand, I'd think if we wanted to build a common XY monitor, wouldn't we want to use parts from a more common monitor? Like somehow figure out how to make a vector monitor using most of the parts from a G07? Or maybe just the tube, yoke and flyback? Maybe just the tube and flyback?" You can't really use any of the magnetics from a raster monitor for a color vector display. If you think about it, the two deflection coils are running at 15khz and 60hz, so the H and V windings have very different inductances Flybacks for raster monitors are designed to operate off of rectified 110, so they are driven with higher voltages than the stand-alone vector designs Here are some of the voltage values used by different HV designs: Original Vectorbeam +/- 18 regulated from 25 Ampliphone +/- 24 regulated from 27 (my board has a power resistor across the regs) WG color +/- 27 WG B&W +40 G08 +63 All of the messages sent to vectorlist are archived on www.spies.com/arcade/vectorlist which is why I send out lots of mail messages sometimes.. just to make sure I have this info saved SOMEWHERE :-) I've been working through all of the magnetics in the different monitors. I have most of the yoke data now, for all the monitors that I had that needed convergence. As soon as I get the portable LCR meter that I ordered (Circuit Specialists has a really nice looking one for $200.. we'll see what it's like when I get it) I can get the inductance values for an Ampliphone and late model G08, with the newer tube. --- We've been talking for a while about what to do about the damn monitors burning up, so what i'm trying to do is 1) figure out WHY they burn up and 2) fix the design, especially for the G08 which has two custom parts on it and a bunch of out of production parts (MPS u series and main deflection transistors). There seems to be a lot of similarity between the basic deflection amplifier designs, so I think it is possible to have a basic design that would work in either chassis. Unless there are a lot of people without monitors at all, I don't think there is a need for a completely new monitor. My guess at the total demand for this stuff is maybe a couple of hundred.. The unit costs on custom flybacks and deflection coils is going to be really high in those volumes. One thing that might be nice is trying to start watching for deflection coils and convergence rings on CRTs getting tossed out.. those are the parts that would be useful save (and they don't take up the storage volume that a crispy fried Tempest CRT does.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 10:42:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:42:11 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:43:09 -0800 To: vectorlist From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist >I really think some type >of audio chip should be able to handle deflection in the XY monitors. I tend to agree, but the yoke makes a big difference. The example monitor that I have (using the STK0050 audio amps to drive the yoke) has a notably different yoke than the 6100 or GO-8. It has a *lot* of turns of fine ga. wire instead of relatively few turns of the thick wire on the WG or Electrohome versions. So if we're starting to get serious about making a new monitor what would the steps be? I'd be inclinded to start like so: 1) pick a tube. Should be cheap, available, relatively dark, relatively flat, and have full specs available. 2) Knowing the tube type defines your voltage requirements to a large extent. The HV section can be designed at this point, with the neck board in mind too (to drive the color guns). The HV should use an easy to find/cheap flyback and other common magnetics and transistors. 3) Design the yoke/deflection amps. It would be nice to design the yoke to be as simple as possible to make, since someone will likely have to hand-wind it. Anyone know of a place to buy the "bare" yoke collars? Alternatively using a WG or Elect. yoke is nice for testing, but might be tough to come up with any significant number of them. Deflection amps should be designed for stable operation and reliability with as common of parts as can be found. (Try to avoid anything that's already obsoleted or single-sourced. ;-) 4) Low voltage supply. Should be pretty straighforeward given the power requirements of the above boards. Something using standard 78xx or 79xx type parts would be good. Linear is probably OK since switchers add complexity. Bonus Points for: Have the power, deflection and HV sections drop into an existing 6100 or GO-8 with a minimum fuss to replace the existing boards. I like Zonn's idea of taking the standard TV and reworking it, but TV models change so fast it'd be kinda tough to make a definative document on what to do. (6 months from now the TV's off the market and we're having to buy a new $300 TV every time to re-design the modifications.) I for one would give up some of the "cheap" goal in exchange for readily available parts, good reliability and good picture quality... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 10:45:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:45:03 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender jenison ) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:44:33 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9709031244.ZM17603@calcite> In-Reply-To: aek (Al Kossow) "Re: yoke resonant frequency" (Sep 3, 10:32am) References: <199709031736.NAA24959 > X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist On Sep 3, 10:32am, Al Kossow wrote: > Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency > "Offhand, I'd think if we wanted to build a common XY monitor, wouldn't we want > to use parts from a more common monitor? Like somehow figure out how to make a > vector monitor using most of the parts from a G07? Or maybe just the tube, > yoke and flyback? Maybe just the tube and flyback?" > > You can't really use any of the magnetics from a raster monitor for a color > vector display. If you think about it, the two deflection coils are running > at 15khz and 60hz, so the H and V windings have very different inductances > > Flybacks for raster monitors are designed to operate off of rectified 110, > so they are driven with higher voltages than the stand-alone vector designs True, but who says we have to go with those designs? > > We've been talking for a while about what to do about the damn monitors burning up, > so what i'm trying to do is 1) figure out WHY they burn up and 2) fix the design, > especially for the G08 which has two custom parts on it and a bunch of out of production > parts (MPS u series and main deflection transistors). There seems to be a lot of > similarity between the basic deflection amplifier designs, so I think it is possible > to have a basic design that would work in either chassis. So you're going to try and design a "fix-it" for each type of monitor? > Unless there are a lot of people without monitors at all, I don't think there is a > need for a completely new monitor. My guess at the total demand for this stuff is > maybe a couple of hundred.. The unit costs on custom flybacks and deflection coils > is going to be really high in those volumes. One thing that might be nice is trying > to start watching for deflection coils and convergence rings on CRTs getting tossed > out.. those are the parts that would be useful save (and they don't take up the > storage volume that a crispy fried Tempest CRT does.. It sounds like Al's goals are different than mine...I was hoping for more of a global solution for everyone; a generic monitor from common parts that could replace any vector monitor and was more reliable. As far as market goes, I don't care about the market, as I'm not trying to make money from it. If we could make one, document how it was made, and have it somewhat affordable, at least everyone would have the OPTION of having a vector monitor, instead of resorting to scavenging warehouses (although that's fun, too ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 10:46:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:46:30 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <340DA309.58DC > Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 11:48:58 -0600 From: Jess Askey Organization: Believe me, I have none!! X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: BUxxx References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist Clay Cowgill wrote: > > Do any of you have the actual specs/ratings for the BU406D, BU409, BU207, > BU208, and BU209? > > BU208's and BU207's seem to indicate that the ratings increase in this > order: BU209, BU208, BU207. (So a BU208 is an OK sub for a 209 and a 207 > is an ok sub for the 207.) However, I've never seen "real" specs on these, > and the only numbers I have seen were in a catalog, so I'm a little > concerned about guessing wrong. > > (Since 207's and 208's seem relatively common compared to a BU209 I want to > see if they're "safe" to substitute or not.) > > Anyone know the answer, or have access to the specs? Doesn't SGS Thompson make them. If so they have really good .pdf specs for everthing at www.st.com . The BU406D isn't there but the 406 was last time I looked. -- Jess M. Askey Unofficial Atari Game Page ESLB/The Audio Analyst http://links.magenta.com/havoc 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B Laramie WY 82070 Shop: (307)721-9001 From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 10:50:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:49:32 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:49:28 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: BUxxx Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist SGS did the parts, they are SGS/Thompson now (www.st.com) The 208(D) and some of the other specs are on line on their web page. Motorola also makes many of these transistors, and their specs are on their web page (208/208D, 406, 407) They used to make 406D's but stopped a while ago. (their data book says the replacement is "MJF16018+diode", thanks..) From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 10:50:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:50:34 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199709031750.NAA26510@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency To: vectorlist Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:50:38 -0500 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970903163223.026c6164 > from "Christopher V. Moore" at Sep 3, 97 12:32:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist > I've been lurking on this subject for a while and have an armchair > engineering question. Has anyone hooked up a spectrum analyzer to see > what the spectral content is of the vector signals? With all this talk > about hooking up audio amps makes me wonder if this will filter off some > of the high end of the signal. Of course it should be measured at the output of the driver because the yoke itself will cut out some high frequency stuff. Which brings me to another question: Aren't deflection coils current controled? i.e. isn't the deflection proportional to the current and NOT the voltage across the coils? I know this is a really basic question, but I've never dug into the schematics really good and they look like an audio amp at first glance. BTW, I've often wondered if speakers should be current driven for similar reasons. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 10:55:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:55:11 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199709031753.MAA03603@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Wed, 3 Sep 97 12:55:05 -0500 To: vectorlist Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist You wrote: > Bonus Points for: Dual raster/vector operation with the ability to handle medium resolution raster games (somebody shanghai Roger Boots and lock him into a room until he provides a working design, eh? ;-) For me, cost is less an issue than bottom line capability. If I can replace the monitor in my universal cabinet with a 25" dual raster/vector monitor, that would be worth a *lot* to me since I could focus my cabinet collection on what I want own, rather than what I need to play games I'm interested in. I am more space and time constrained than constrained by a one time captial outlay (yeesh, I'm starting to sound like a yuppie ;-) My 2000 millicents Ray From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 10:56:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:56:15 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:56:11 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist "and if you do not have an extiguisher by your GO8, there could be some trouble" What EXACTLY burns up? Which VERSION of the G08 are you referring to? There are 4 designs that I know of: 1) no HV overvolage, input, or overcurrent protection (-001) used MJ15003/4 complimentary pair in the output. 2) an intermediate version (-002?) that appears in my Sega vector repair manual that has most of the stuff missing above, but still used a complimentary pair for outputs 3) the most common one, with 2N6259 NPN drivers 4) the later design that Zonn mentioned (I have one now to analyize, thanks to Werner!) that has all the little kludge boards integrated onto the PC with mongo NPN drivers. ..my guess is most of the monitors out there are -003's variety #3 From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 11:04:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:04:37 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:04:33 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist "As far as market goes, I don't care about the market, as I'm not trying to make money from it. If we could make one, document how it was made, and have it somewhat affordable, at least everyone would have the OPTION of having a vector monitor, instead of resorting to scavenging warehouses (although that's fun, too ;-)) I think we DO have common goals; to have a reliable display, but I don't think it is practical or necessary to design a complete replacement monitor if there is a replacement PC board for the deflection and HV PCBs. One thing I don't have any real data on is how reliable the HV transformers in the designs other than the Ampliphone are. Are most WG failures deflection and spot killer related? I guess Greg and John probably have the most repair data of the folks in the group.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Sep 3 11:49:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:49:30 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970903124911.005eee00 > X-Sender: andersk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 12:49:11 -0600 To: vectorlist From: Anders Knudsen Subject: Re: yoke resonant frequency In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist At 11:04 AM 9/3/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I think we DO have common goals; to have a reliable display, but I don't think >it is practical or necessary to design a complete replacement monitor if there >is a replacement PC board for the deflection and HV PCBs. One thing I don't >have any real data on is how reliable the HV transformers in the designs other >than the Ampliphone are. Are most WG failures deflection and spot killer related? > Actually the "spot kill" circuit in the P314 (WG61) does not usually fail, rather it kicks in when the output of the VG fails. The main failure point for the P314 is the deflection amps, and the low voltage power supply. The low voltage supply is easily fixed by using a regulated supply design that has thermal and current protection. I actually have a redesigned LV supply in my Tempest's 6100 monitor, and it has been working great for about 6 months! The deflection amps fail partly because they are supplied by a poorly design LV supply, and partly because the "power" BJTs get hit to hard by the inductive kick from the deflection coils...and eventually burn out. Al mentioned the LT1166 driver...got me thinking, so I looked at the data sheet, and this could be a very solid solution, designing an "audio" type power amp with it -- i.e., staying with the Class AB type push pull design that is currently there. It looks like this would require quite a few support components to get the job done -- several op amps for gain control and pre-output stage buffering to get very low distortion. I think it is a solution worth considering, but... I think we need to get a couple of solutions on the table